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Posted by AdminLB on 13 August 2008 - 12:39

Hi all,

I have been asked a few times about the status and process of becoming a VIP Member. Prior to my ownership, getting VIP involved making a donation to the site. I would like to change the concept and procedure.

1. Make a donation to VR via paypal at this account - paypal@verticalreference.com.
2. BE SURE to put your Username and "Upgrade to VIP" in the remarks section of the paypal payment.
3. Typical donations thus far have ranged from $10 - $50.
4. I will donate 100% of the funds to a helicopter related scholarship fund on behalf of Verticalreference.com and it's VIP Members.

Becoming a VIP Member affords you access to the VIP Members Forum, which is invisible to regular VR Members. It may also afford you the satisfaction of helping some poor, hapless, will fly for food, wannabe pilot who is slogging his or her way through the trials and tribulations of becoming a pilot! And we all know what that is like ;)

Ps. Any suggestions for whom we should donate the $$ ?
  • inetryconydot, CaptainDune, XRumerTest and 34 others like this

#199640 I'm Out...

Posted by stearmann4 on 05 April 2019 - 07:54



After 30 years I'm finally hanging it up, turned down W5 to retire May 31st. I'm not sure how I avoided it, but I'm not the fat, gray, grouchy SWO yet, and retiring on a crest hopefully will keep that intact. My wife said to retire as Brett Favre with the Packers, not Brett Favre with the Jets.."


I've been frequenting VR and all variations of it since I was a W2, written about 17 LORs, all of which have been selected to WOFT. I've also been on several selection boards.


Unbeknownst to many of you on here, I've voted on your applications and often shook my head while doing so. My one point of guidance would be to keep that in mind when you post. I couldn't indicate outright what I looked for as aboard member, but I've subtly posted multiple pages of guidance on essays, interviews, resumes, the standards and what works as a no-fail technique for your applications, and that hasn't changed.


My oldest son is out there as an AH-64 Company Commander in AK(CPT Nik Steele) so say hi if you get the chance. I've also got another one who will hopefully be hitting WOC school in a year or so.


Of my 30 years, 12 as a SEAL and the rest as an aviator, I've had the most fun flying. Its what you make of it, if you think it sucks, it's temporary, you're your own change agent.


Rock On,





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Posted by 67november on 07 February 2008 - 17:57

The VR Admin and Moderators have agreed to strictly enforce the Board Guideline below

"-Using or causing to be used Vertical Reference Website computer systems to facilitate the transmission of unsolicited or unauthorized material. This includes any promotional materials, URLs, "junk mail," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of unauthorized solicitation that you may upload, post, email, transmit, or otherwise make available."

we encourage all student to use the school review forum (see review button at the top of the forum page) for locating or offering reviews of your particular school.

we are enforcing this policy to protect the companies who are paying to advertise on this site with an authorized ad.

For advertising information see the "advertise" button at the top of the home page.
  • inetryconydot, XRumerTest, taiffustyk and 21 others like this

#35622 FAQ

Posted by PhotoFlyer on 17 October 2006 - 23:45

Please follow the link below to the FAQ thread, many of your questions will be answered there.

Vertical Reference FAQ's
  • inetryconydot, taiffustyk, assaaasurraa and 18 others like this

#26934 Where are you?

Posted by PhotoFlyer on 12 March 2006 - 22:03

Where do you hail from? Visit the new Vertical Reference map and add your info.


You don't need to register to use the site, but you will need to enter an email address. Frappr.com will never send you spam, sell, or give away your email address...I promise.
  • taiffustyk, GoaffIpdody, assaaasurraa and 17 others like this


Posted by Lindsey on 23 July 2010 - 21:34

EDIT: I have made a new guide that is much more extensive than what was posted here before.


It is attached.

Attached Files

  • Lindsey, inetryconydot, XRumerTest and 16 others like this


Posted by vertrefadmin on 05 December 2006 - 12:45


Your first posts will be moderated. This helps us to control SPAM.

What this means to you is that your post will appear to be posted but will placed in a moderation list; hidden from the public. Moderators approve this new post list then you will see your post.

Verified VR Members avoid this moderator's queue.
  • inetryconydot, GoaffIpdody, assaaasurraa and 16 others like this

#151611 Dynamic Rollover

Posted by Nearly Retired on 25 March 2014 - 09:15

This is not "technically" a case of dynamic rollover which we typically associate with a helicopter lifting off the ground. 


We are taught to get the helicopter into a stable hover BEFORE doing anything else.  This is for a reason.  We are taught to hover at a specific height.  This is for a reason.  We are taught to hover POINTING IN the direction the helicopter is moving.  This is also for a reason.


In the video, the EC120 pilot lifts off but never really gets it stabilized.  He starts an immediate pedal turn and then begins to hover taxi away from the crowd.  But it's not a good hover.  He's going too fast and his hover height is erratic.  We can conclude that the PIC is horribly weak in skill level.  As the ship gets out to the grass runway, we see it start to move sideways in relation to his heading.  At five feet this would have been no big deal.  At one foot it's a Big Deal.  Sure enough, he catches the back of the skid and over she goes!


I've said repeatedly that helicopters are incredibly easy to crash.  You go from what you think is controlled flight into the "accident zone" in the blink of an eye.  It's over before you know what happened, or have time to react.


Even at my advanced age and experience level, I always, always, ALWAYS lift off to a hover and then STOP!  I take a breath, look around, check that everything is alright.  *THEN* I do whatever comes next.  I never just "pull and go" like I see so many, many pilots do.  Pull and turn and we're outta here!  That's bad form, fellas.  Bad form.  Lift off, GET IT STABILIZED, do a pretakeoff check ("hover hang", gauges in the green, lights out, area clear) and then go aviating.  Unless someone is shooting at you, there is...or should be...no rush to get airborne.


The EC120 in the video wasn't dynamic rollover.  It was dumbass rollover.

  • Mikemv, adam32, Spike and 12 others like this

#173985 Do most Army soldiers want aviation?

Posted by StockTrader on 22 December 2015 - 18:38


Attached Files

  • Yamer, Seth G., movingtarget21 and 11 others like this

#160087 Boomer (Not So) Sooner (more on the pilot shortage) - rebuttal

Posted by AdminLB on 31 October 2014 - 12:50

Mr. Butters . . .

Hello. My name is Lyn and I am the Owner / Editor In Chief of Rotorcraft Pro. I read with great interest your rebuttal to the story I ran in our magazine, as well as the follow on discussion. I thought the discussion was very good with lots of unique perspectives. I think much of what has been said in response to your rebuttal is accurate. I want to make a few points:

1. That article was written from a global perspective. You might note that the two sources quoted were from two of the largest helicopters operators on the planet. . . Air Methods Corp and Bristow Group. One has a U.S. imprint, and the other has a global imprint. Some of the references you saw regarding 60 year olds and two pilot crews are how it’s done in areas like the North Sea and Europe. I think both operators are far more qualified than you (or I for that matter) to look out on the horizon and see where their challenges will come from with respect to personnel shortages. You might know that in recent years, these big operators have made bold investments in areas that are not within their normal business purview. For example, remember when Bristow Group purchased one of the largest flight schools in the nation? Bristow Academy used to be Helicopter Adventures. And more recently, Air Methods, the largest EMS operator in the world (in fact the largest Part 135 operator in the world) purchased tour operator Sundance Helicopters. Both are trying to invest in areas that will not only be profit centers for their portfolios, but a personnel pipeline for their most profitable ops, which are EMS and Oil & Gas.

2. Your viewpoint is definitely not macro-economic; nor is it micro-economic. Frankly, it is myopic. There is a much bigger industry out there than the tee-tiny space in which you occupy where you only have experience in an R22, some experience in a R44, do not hold a CFI, nor have ever held a job in the industry. I do not say that in a mean spirited way, or as a personal attack, but this is the truth . . . . our industry is driven by supply and demand. This is true of helicopters themselves as well as the pilots who fly them.

The concept is simple, when there are more entry-level pilots than entry-level positions — as there has been for the last 7 years — then you better be competitive. 95% of the people who enter this U.S. market with the desire to become a career helicopter pilot better do two things: 1) Fly Robinsons and, 2) go all the way to CFII.

If you do not do those two things, you will have drastically reduced your chances for opportunity and being successful. Sure, there is a chance to be successful, but a VERY small one. Why would an operator hire an entry level person with the lowest ratings, when there are 9 CFII’s standing in the same line who will work for the same pay?

Our industry is kind of unique in that there are many different sectors that all have different experience requirements. But because there is essentially only one main entry level job source (flight training), it creates a supply log-jam as pilots funnel through. Take a look at the graphic I created about 7 years ago. It can flux a little left and right, but for the most part is an accurate reflection of reality.


Whereas the log-jam occurs at the entry level jobs (Flight Training), there is more equilibrium in the area of tours and GOM . . .for now. The projected experience gap lies in the area of EMS, GOM/IFR and other missions that demand more experience like firefighting, corporate, utility and so on where they want 2500+ + night + nvg + IFR or some other specialized experiences. The other problem we have is the absorption rate that occurs between the three largest sectors that make up the career tracks, i.e., flight training >>> GOM/Tours >>> EMS. They all have their own economies and are rarely in sync.

It is a known fact that the largest pilot demographic was created by the Vietnam war (which also is made up of baby boomers). It was always speculated a decade ago that they would be leaving when they hit around 60. As it turned out, with declining 401K’s from 2008 - 2010, and the fact that they are healthier . . .they are staying on board as long as they can keep a medical.

In the end that large population will leave, but not in a vacuum. It will not be like "poof" and they are all gone, but a steady attrition over just a few years. In the meantime though, global demand for helicopters will increase. Latin america has exploded, while emerging markets such as India and China are the next great frontier. Why do you suppose the OEM’s are all running east. Sure, more helicopters will be sold in the US in years to come, but the real fleet growth will be globally. Below is a chart to give you some perspective on projections. The slide was created about 3.5 years ago (not by me) and the data came from Helicas International.


3. You closed your post with, “You need more pilots with fat logbooks, we need more entry-level jobs!,...but no one ever writes an article about that?”

What’s to write?? It’s not like someone can snap a finger and create more flight schools, thereby creating more entry level jobs. Nor can the operators who foresee the need for increased supply snap their fingers and create more pilots . . . hence their long term investments. Again, supply and demand is the rule of the day.

Here is the cold hard reality that people entering in this industry need to understand. Your options are simple. A) Join the military —— or B) Go the traditional civilian track.

  1. If you go the civilian track, AS A MINIMUM — you better plan on flying a Robinson, becoming a CFII, having some other valuable skill besides just flying, and be willing to pay your dues in order to be competitive.
  2. You better plan on positioning yourself for flying tours or GOM as your next job.
  3. You better get your ATP the instant you have the hours to take the tests so that you are competitive for the next level jobs.

There is no amount of bitching or griping that will change these facts. Sure, some get lucky and fall into the rare opportunity because of being in the right place and right time, but that is the exception and not the rule. If people are spending their time and money banking on the exception . . .then they are fools. One needs to invest in a plan that’s rooted in the real world first, and if you get a lucky break, then be thankful.

Ps. Gonna get even harder here pretty soon. The Army just killed the Kiowa Warrior (basically a Bell 407), potentially putting 500 pilots out of a job. Many will take up new MOS’s, and some will transition to another airframe if positions are available. But many will be pushed out of the Army, and that will equal an influx of experienced light-turbine helicopter pilots, many of which will be competing for those same Tour and GOM jobs.

Think global. Think macro-economics. Think supply demand. Jobs don’t get created because you think they should be. They are what the industry demands and you must compete with the supply.


Thanks again for starting this thread, it has been most interesting.

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#144167 COLLEGE DEGREE'S - Valuable for helicopter pilots?

Posted by AdminLB on 13 November 2013 - 11:16

Helicopter Industry Education Opinionnaire

What is your opinion about the value of a bachelor's degree for helicopter pilot interviews and job placement?

This is part of an industry research project and we need your honest opinion!

Take 2 minute survey - click here

  • inetryconydot, XRumerTest, Helipilot PTK and 11 others like this

#108787 NEW PILOT

Posted by SBuzzkill on 29 September 2011 - 19:56

Awesome man I'm glad working for BOATPIX is working out for you. Couldn't you have posted this in one of the various other BOATPIX threads though?

  • AngelFire_91, RotorWeed, Galadrium and 12 others like this

#102221 A Question for Newbies

Posted by Spike on 21 January 2011 - 22:03

I would have looked for a career elsewhere (which ironically is what I'm doing anyway).

So what worthwhile careers have you come across that has more jobs’ then people? Pretty sure there is at least 9.1% (current rate of unemployment) of the population who’d like to know……

Again, it's the red "-" at the lower right.....
  • AngelFire_91, palmfish, BOATFIXERGUY and 13 others like this

#145396 Upper Limit, Salt Lake City, UT

Posted by rick1128 on 06 December 2013 - 11:31

I visited their operation in Cedar City yesterday. Everyone seemed quite positive and busy. I saw 5 R44s on the ramp and they didn't sit very long. Plus I saw a few things that I felt were very big positives of the organization. As for posibly losing a contract, I didn't hear any thing.

  • johnnieew1, vivianrj4, mirandawb4 and 10 others like this

#145071 Newest VR pilot!

Posted by gary-mike on 27 November 2013 - 21:43

I can finally say I'm a helicopter pilot! Passed my private check ride this morning, very excited and relieved.
  • JDHelicopterPilot, heligirl03, palmfish and 10 others like this

#166532 Selection today

Posted by stearmann4 on 17 May 2015 - 17:18

Believe it or not, for as many LTs and RLOs as we think are inept and immature leaders, there's just as many (or more per capita) WOs, who while maybe competent aviators, are horrible leaders and managers, and a good number or who are just lazy dirt bags. If all else fails, at least the RLOs have text books and doctrine to fall back on if they lack any real leadership talent, WOs get very little, and it's disguised as sock rolling and 3 x 5 card trimming.


Its true, most RLOs spent their formative years in higher education, while most WOs were either enlisted, or dealing with life as civilians at that age. Bottom line, we as a Corps aren't helping the relationship, because you WILL work for these guys and gals we're bashing. Believe it or not, most will grow to be good leaders and Battalion Commanders. If they hate WOs when they get to that level, we only have ourselves to blame by perpetuating the divide.


Everyone seems to believe in the hype that WOs are the "tactical and technical experts", and that's why the LTs are sub par regardless of what they wear on their collar. In reality, to be an expert, you have to have time and experience to develop that skill set. Senior W3s W4s and 5s are generally the ones that can be referred to as a reliable reference and spew tips that will save your life.


The only difference between a LT and WO1/CW2 in flight school at this point is...next to nothing except what your life experiences bring to the table.


My advice is don't jump on the "dumb RLO" band wagon just because it's convenient and what everyone else is doing. And certainly make sure you're squared away in every aspect before you start critiquing another aviator.


That LT is your superior, he/she earned it, academically at least, so save the eye rolling. For what it's worth, I've known several WOs who later went on to become RLOs, and most were dismal failures as leaders.


Give them the respect they've earned, and it will pay dividends in both your professions in the future.



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#160613 November 2014 WOFT Board

Posted by StockTrader on 18 November 2014 - 17:41

Sitting in the gym trembling right now. 15 months ago I set out on this journey. #1 on my bucket list.

  • USAR153D, Lindsey, d10 and 9 others like this

#157344 What Are My Chances? Check Out the Stats of Selected Members HERE.

Posted by NN18 on 29 July 2014 - 13:25

AGE: 29

GT: 115

SIFT: 44

APFT: 300

EDUCATION: 4 classes away from a B.S. in Criminal Justice with a current GPA-3.4

FLIGHT: None, but being Infantry I explained the expectations from the ground and using air support. I.E. medvacs, recon, and gun runs (Everything I used from my deployments)

MILITARY EXPERIENCE: 7years TIS, E6(P), might make E-7 before WOCS, ALC (CL), WLC (CL), Ranger School, Airborne, Air Assault, TTC, EIB, CIB, and so on-bunch other courses.

LORS: BN, CO, and CW4 standardization

SELECTED: May 2014


WOCS date 15-009, anyone else going to this date hit me up.


Dropped my packet two different times. I was a PVT and SPC with no schools, awards, or deployments before this look. Took me 5 years to do every badge school, deployments, and college to get here. This was the 5th look/time my packet went across this board. I think they just felt bad for me or see that I've been working hard to excel in the Army

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#146325 I wrote a little 'solo poem'

Posted by tradford on 24 December 2013 - 16:55

Solo Flight


The day is just right for companion-less flight,
winds are calm with no clouds in the sky,
the critical gear has received the “all clear” –
now she’s fueled and deemed ready-to-fly.


The mixture’s full-rich, I confirm that the pitch
will adjust as I move the controls –
and the tach isn’t fazed as collective is raised,
since the grip automatically rolls.


I pull it up slow – wonder which way she’ll go
until finally she’s light on the skids –
then I counter the yaw and correct for the draw
that could lead to what safety forbids.


She lists to the side as collective’s applied,
‘cause the fuel weighs a bit more than me –
but the wonderful gift of additional lift
makes the earth set the two of us free.


It’s hard to describe what it feels like to ride
on a cushion just feet from the ground
in an aerial sled – as the blades overhead
beat the air with a thunderous sound.


The pound of my heart when I’m cleared to depart,
makes me wonder if all that I’ve learned
will ensure I survive, that I’ll get back alive –
still intact when my flight is adjourned.


I know I’ve progressed and that leaving the nest
is a ritual all must transcend,
but I find it profound that there’s no one around,
if I panic – that might be the end!


I start on my roll with the cyclic control,
get in trim with the help of a string,
then I push for the shift to translational lift
and I climb like a bird on the wing.


I’m really content with my rate of ascent,
it’s much faster than any before –
the reduction in crew makes this R22
fly a lot like an R44.


I’ve reached AGL in my flying gazelle
and the tower has cleared me to land –
I’ve already seen that the gauges are green
and the cyclic is firmly in hand.


I reach by my seat and I pull in some heat
so my rotors continue to spin –
then I pilot my coach onto final approach
and the two of us softly descend.


I try to be neat with my hands and my feet,
keep her straight ‘till we come to a stop,
and I’m back to the stand where my journey began –
the experience – over the top.


My memory’s tossed to the hurdles I’ve crossed
and the times I was ready to quit –
the tasks I assailed and consistently failed,
and a few that I hate to admit.


This tunnel has light that is barely in sight
and there’s no turning back now for me –
I’ll stay on this course if it leads to divorce,
but a pilot – I’m destined to be!

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#108854 ferry flights

Posted by Falko on 02 October 2011 - 15:06

i will ferry it for you.

you will have to pay me 400$ a day, plus airfare,plus hotel...etc

send me a message
  • AngelFire_91, Falko, adam32 and 10 others like this

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