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Not happy with my lift-offs


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I'm currently training in my own R44 and close to soloing, but I'm not real happy with my lift-offs. Most of the time I don't seem to have the cyclic centered properly while lifting off, so there is usually some horizontal movement that needs to be dealt with. Why can't I lift straight up like everyone else does on youtube?

 

I also take way too long pulling the collective as I don't seem to remember at what point my machine starts getting light on the skids. The last time I tried to speed things up I shot up off the ground and everyone got a little excited.

 

My instructor wants me to use a little left cyclic to make sure the left skid comes up first, pause briefly when light on the skids, correct and then lift off, but not being able to tell where neutral position is, things get a little hairy at times.

 

My landings are another issue, but I'll save that for another post :-)

 

I humbly look forward to your advice.

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The trick to picking up the R44 is to first pick a point 100 ft out in front of you. Your peripheral vision should be your primary indicator for a pickup. Raise the collective in steps at first ( raise a half an inch, stop, raise a half an inch, stop) every time you sense movement stop raising the collective neutralize the the movement and the continue to raise. Also I was taught to stir the cyclic (by a DPE) to find the neutral point before I start. Saying that you need to bring the left skid up is correct but not the best way to think about a pickup. Treat every one as if it could be from a slope, take it slow and remember these thing take tim. It took me well into my CFI before i could really pickup smooth and they still are not perfect

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Pick-ups are a two-step process:

  • light on skids (LOS)
  • smooth pick up to a 3-5 foot hover

Think of LOS as a really, really low hover. To do it successfully, you have to prepare a little:

  • Pick a distant point, preferably something vertical (pole, side of building)
  • Add a little left cyclic (for translating tendency) and a little left pedal (for torque)

Now you can get LOS:

  • Inch the collective up until you start feeling LOS
  • Stop.Right.There. Neutralize any yaw or fore/aft-left/right drift.
     
    And now you can go fly:
  • Keep sloowly and smoothly adding collective, and compensating with left pedal/left cyclic as needed to prevent drift.
  • End it in a 3-5 foot hover.

A few other things:


  • That distant reference is important. Hopefully when you were learning to hover you used the same concept. It keeps your eyes outside and away from the ground below you. Having a vertical component to it helps maintain your sight picture as you climb.
  • Don't dink around too long while you're LOS. Like any low hover, that's the dynamic rollover zone. Your preparatory inputs should have you pretty close to being neutral, and as you're getting close to LOS, you should be able to feel it if you're way off on your cyclic/pedal corrections. And slooow is key: do it fast and you can end up scooting several feet along the ground. (That's bad.)
  • Your cyclic will not be centered most of the time as you're getting LOS. And it'll change with your CG. As you get experience, you can glance at your cyclic position to see where it is to keep all movement neutralized at that CG configuration. You can also look at your W&B (which you do before every flight, right?) and guesstimate how you might need to adapt your preparatory inputs. For example, when you solo, your CG will be further aft and right than usual--so what modification to your preparatory inputs would you make?
  • If it takes you several minutes to pick up in the beginning, so what? You'll get better, smoother, and faster. But no matter what, it's always the take-off 2-step: light on skids, neutralized all movement, then up into a hover.
  • Hopping into the air is a bad habit and could introduce you to dynamic rollover. If you aren't flying when you think you should be, lower the collective and take a look at your skids and the surface they're on.
  • As you get better at this, you can figure out when you should be flying by incorporating your MAP into your scan during pick up. On your first pick up of the day, get LOS, glance at your MAP, look out and finish the pick up. Next time, get ready for the pick up, raise the collective to just below the MAP you used for the last pick up, then look out side and raise collective to LOS.

 

From the other posts:

  • death grips will hurt you for sure. Fly with fingertips.
  • You might not be this far along in your training, but yeah, treat every pick up and set down like you were doing it on a slope (ie, any drift or yaw could get ugly fast)
  • "Stirring the pot"--I think I know what you're talking about. It's to find the point where the MR is happiest and vibration is minimal. It might be where the cyclic is dead center, but it's probably not where you want to be when you're LOS.

I probably forgot something, but this is all from memory--it's one of the few basic lessons I haven't published yet.

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The trick to picking up the R44 is to first pick a point 100 ft out in front of you. Your peripheral vision should be your primary indicator for a pickup. Raise the collective in steps at first ( raise a half an inch, stop, raise a half an inch, stop) every time you sense movement stop raising the collective neutralize the the movement and the continue to raise. Also I was taught to stir the cyclic (by a DPE) to find the neutral point before I start. Saying that you need to bring the left skid up is correct but not the best way to think about a pickup. Treat every one as if it could be from a slope, take it slow and remember these thing take tim. It took me well into my CFI before i could really pickup smooth and they still are not perfect

 

You suggest stirring the cyclic before I start. I've been experimenting with this (much to my instructors dismay). I can't seem to feel any movement until close to lift off. Should I be able to find the neutral position with this method before I start pulling collective? Yesterday I stirred the cyclic a little too late (we were already quite light on the skids) and I could almost hear my instructor frowning :-)

 

We haven't done any slopes yet.

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relax that right hand, the DEATH GRIP is hard to overcome at first. when you white knuckle, it is hard to feel anything. Long as your at it relax that left hand too. Always check the trim position before you begin.

 

 

I don't seem to have any issues with the death grip. Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by the "trim position" and how do you check that? If you are referring to the pedal position, I always start with a little left pedal.

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This is a good point for you to talk to your instructor about with regard to CG. Make sure you understand your weight & balance charts. You will get a better understanding about what the ship wants to do even before you get light on the skids. Two heavier passengers is gonna make it want to scoot forward, when you solo with allot of fuel that left side is gonna want to come up (depending on your weight) and it will want to lean back because of the fuel, so a SMALL amount of forward left cyclic is a good place to start. I always try to get the yaw corrected first with the cyclic positioned where I feel it should want to go, accept no side to side movement. Initially in my training I accepted only a very small amount of forward movement if any and then just slowly pick up adjusting the cyclic as I do in a hover. Just remember, NO LARGE INPUTS! The ability to be ahead of what the helicopter wants to do will help allot. Also make sure to discuss the effects of the wind based on what direction it's coming from when you lift off, and the effects/corrective inputs. I am only a PPL w/95 hrs., I would say mine didn't really start looking like something to be proud of til 50+ hours. A few hovering auto's straightened me right up, slopes will also help. Enjoy your training.

 

Looks like KODOZ got in just as I was posting, perfect explanation!

Edited by TimW68
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Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by the "trim position" and how do you check that? If you are referring to the pedal position, I always start with a little left pedal.

 

What are you flying? I think the Astros had an electric trim hat switch instead of hydraulics. I could be wrong, but it probably doesn't apply to you.

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Pick-ups are a two-step process:

  • light on skids (LOS)
  • smooth pick up to a 3-5 foot hover

Think of LOS as a really, really low hover. To do it successfully, you have to prepare a little:

  • Pick a distant point, preferably something vertical (pole, side of building)
  • Add a little left cyclic (for translating tendency) and a little left pedal (for torque)

Now you can get LOS:

  • Inch the collective up until you start feeling LOS
  • Stop.Right.There. Neutralize any yaw or fore/aft-left/right drift.
     
    And now you can go fly:
  • Keep sloowly and smoothly adding collective, and compensating with left pedal/left cyclic as needed to prevent drift.
  • End it in a 3-5 foot hover.

A few other things:


  • That distant reference is important. Hopefully when you were learning to hover you used the same concept. It keeps your eyes outside and away from the ground below you. Having a vertical component to it helps maintain your sight picture as you climb.
  • Don't dink around too long while you're LOS. Like any low hover, that's the dynamic rollover zone. Your preparatory inputs should have you pretty close to being neutral, and as you're getting close to LOS, you should be able to feel it if you're way off on your cyclic/pedal corrections. And slooow is key: do it fast and you can end up scooting several feet along the ground. (That's bad.)
  • Your cyclic will not be centered most of the time as you're getting LOS. And it'll change with your CG. As you get experience, you can glance at your cyclic position to see where it is to keep all movement neutralized at that CG configuration. You can also look at your W&B (which you do before every flight, right?) and guesstimate how you might need to adapt your preparatory inputs. For example, when you solo, your CG will be further aft and right than usual--so what modification to your preparatory inputs would you make?
  • If it takes you several minutes to pick up in the beginning, so what? You'll get better, smoother, and faster. But no matter what, it's always the take-off 2-step: light on skids, neutralized all movement, then up into a hover.
  • Hopping into the air is a bad habit and could introduce you to dynamic rollover. If you aren't flying when you think you should be, lower the collective and take a look at your skids and the surface they're on.
  • As you get better at this, you can figure out when you should be flying by incorporating your MAP into your scan during pick up. On your first pick up of the day, get LOS, glance at your MAP, look out and finish the pick up. Next time, get ready for the pick up, raise the collective to just below the MAP you used for the last pick up, then look out side and raise collective to LOS.

 

From the other posts:

  • death grips will hurt you for sure. Fly with fingertips.
  • You might not be this far along in your training, but yeah, treat every pick up and set down like you were doing it on a slope (ie, any drift or yaw could get ugly fast)
  • "Stirring the pot"--I think I know what you're talking about. It's to find the point where the MR is happiest and vibration is minimal. It might be where the cyclic is dead center, but it's probably not where you want to be when you're LOS.

I probably forgot something, but this is all from memory--it's one of the few basic lessons I haven't published yet.

 

Thank you for your detailed response Kodoz. I love the MAP idea. That makes a lot of sense and should help me get to the LOS position in a much timelier manner.

 

I will also try looking farther out at something vertical too. I have been finding myself looking at the ground closer to the machine as I thought this was helping me detect movement more quickly. Staring at a hangar door on initial lift off isn't helping me much either I suspect.

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I love the MAP idea. That makes a lot of sense and should help me get to the LOS position in a much timelier manner.

 

I will also try looking farther out at something vertical too. I have been finding myself looking at the ground closer to the machine as I thought this was helping me detect movement more quickly. Staring at a hangar door on initial lift off isn't helping me much either I suspect.

 

These are things that that your instructor should be telling you. Maybe a change of instructor would be a good thing. I think you should hire Kodoz to teach you. Looks like he has got some good points to make!

 

P.S. I don't know him but he usuaslly has good things to say!! :D

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Don't get too technical. The R44 takes a little longer because the hydraulics don't offer much in the way of feedback. You will improve with time, and experience, especially if you don't think about it. ;)

 

On setdowns, try doing a slight run-on. That helped me in the B206, which has similar "feel" issues.

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All of the above is great advice.

 

At some point you will do it by the seat of your pants. You will be able to feel the helicopter as it becomes you and you become it.

 

I often jumped from an R-22 to an Astar in the same day or an Astar to an A119. I don't think about which way the rotor turns or the size of the ship.

 

It just comes down to it that they are all helicopters and you can feel and see what is happening then apply the right control imput.

 

JD

Edited by JDHelicopterPilot
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Don't get too technical. The R44 takes a little longer because the hydraulics don't offer much in the way of feedback. You will improve with time, and experience, especially if you don't think about it. ;)

 

Specific to the R44 Raven 1 and 11 ships. The hydraulics are so over boosted that it is nothing like flying, say, a Bell 47 with hydraulics.

 

Watch your load. If its just the two of you with a left tank top off, you should know exactly how it is going to pick up. Put some people in the back and your going to need some aft cyclic, maybe lots of aft cyclic with half tanks. I do stir the cyclic at 15 inches of MP and thats my starting point. Always feed in some left pedal and then slight left or right cyclic...again, I'm usually the heavier guy so depending on fuel I need a little left cyclic to offset my fat ass.

 

Just pay attention and do things slow. You should never be in a hurry to launch the ship into the air.

 

Goldy

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The real secret is to do everything very slowly. Never, ever get in a hurry and jerk a ship into the air. Sooner or later you will bitterly regret doing that. The closer you get to liftoff, the better you can feel where the controls need to be, and the slower you do it, the more feel you get and the smoother you will be. It will take some left cyclic in most cases, because of translating tendency, but if you have a strong wind from the right, you'll have to compensate for that. Every takeoff, and every landing, is different. It just takes experience to learn to feel what inputs are necessary, and when. Take it very slow, and practice a lot. Those are the only secrets that I know of.

 

I tend to disagree on the advice to look way out in front. I look as close in as I can, right in front of the nose or closer. I learned to do that flying offshore, where looking out in the distance is a surefire way to hurt yourself. Even onshore, I look in close, and find that works much better for me.

Edited by Gomer Pylot
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I think that once you can fly by the seat of your pants your eyes should move in but for a new student focusing in is going to cause over controlling. their peripheral visions should give indications of movement. I look right in front of the helicopter or even at the skid depending on the day but only because i have developed the ability not to over control

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You're pre-solo so try not to sweat it too much. Try spending the first and last 10 min. of every flight practicing pickups and setdowns. It'll help build your muscle memory faster.

 

I think you should hire Kodoz too, I met him over a year ago at heli-expo and still have his card. I wish I could hire him, and can't believe no one else has.

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To All, Kodoz (Chris) is well respected by most that know him. He works within the Helo community at different levels and is an asset to the Industry! New CFIs should follow his lead when they can and stay involved even if not yet teaching in a helo. Best to all, Be Safe, make a Seminar, MikeMV

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My advice is this: slow down.

 

Raise the collective to 15" MAP. Eyes out, if that's what your instructor wants. SLOOOOOWLY raise the collective until you feel movement. Stop. Correct any drift with pedals and cyclic as necessary. Continue raising the collective until you're hovering.

 

I started out in the R-22 and got really used to being able to feel every little change I made, even when I was on the ground. I moved into a Raven II after around 75 hours TT, and I had the same general issues because I couldn't feel what was going on. I hate to over-simplify, but if you slow it down some, I'm sure you'll be able to figure out what you're doing wrong and correct it.

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I would suggest abandoning the "pot-stirring" pick-up for now. Once you have more of a feel for the aircraft, it's a very quick, effective way to feel out the where the CG of the aircraft is. But you have to be very sensitive to what the helicopter is telling you as you do it. In my experience that much feel doesn't usually develop until at least a couple hundred hours in. I've tried teaching it to students with various levels of experience and it seems like they could only benefit from it well after they already had a good feel for the more proper way to learn pick-ups (mentioned in earlier posts: raise, stop raising and cancel movement, raise some more, stop raising and cancel movement, etc.). I have since stopped even showing the "pot-stir" to private and commercial students. But I've seen a lot of higher time pilots do it (sometimes without realizing it) and I caught myself using the same method around 700 or 800 hours.

 

Just be patient. It takes a lot of repetition to get the pick-ups smoothed out. And as mentioned before, keep them slow!

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To All, Kodoz (Chris) is well respected by most that know him. He works within the Helo community at different levels and is an asset to the Industry! New CFIs should follow his lead when they can and stay involved even if not yet teaching in a helo. Best to all, Be Safe, make a Seminar, MikeMV

 

 

Ditto...

 

dp

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