Dropping Skydivers out of Helicopters

[pilot51]

Hello,

 

I am trying to research how dropping skydivers is done out of a helicopter.

I would like to have some input from guys out there that have done it before.

Preferrably out of a R44, even though I think there are better helicopters out there to use for this job. Maybe a CH47, but because of all the cost/price ratio thing it might not be feasible....

 

So here is what I think related to the R44:

 

Climb: According to POH to at least 5000 AGL

 

Doors: Off

 

Seating: How should they sit? Regularly (difficult exiting the helo?) or tilted by 90 degrees, so they sit, but feet are hanging out the door. This should be easy to exit: step on the skids, let go.

 

Interior: baggage compartments beneath passenger seats should be empty (See POH for doors off operation), seat belts should be buckled up before dropping is completed, so they can not hang outside in the decent. Dual controls removed.

 

A/S and attitude while dropping: Attitude level, airspeed at or above ETL, low positive rate of climb to have rotor disc loaded to avoid low g as weight of skydiver is gone

 

Dropping sequence: 3 skydivers simultaneously or at least 1 each side simultaneously and the third one at last. Here I would like to know how you guys experience the change of CG with different dropping sequences. So what dropping sequence makes sense or requires which anticipation.

 

Looking forward to your experiences and feedback.

 

I am a fairly experienced pilot dropping skydivers out of fixed wing aircraft, a few hundred hours doing this.

But the other half of me is commercial rotorcraft...

Thanks for sharing.

 

pilot51

[RkyMtnHI]

Man pilot51, when i read your post, and re-read it, i just shiver!!!! I only have 130 hours in a 44, and only 250 jumps (C license), but i would NEVER do this or be involved in it (even with some of my friends with thousands of jumps). I have around 10 jumps from 3 helos, one i can't mention but the others in a 206 and a Huey. The important part is that all three helos were empty, no seats and not much to get tangled up on, they were set up to do these jumps far in advance. I cringe when i think of catching a pilot chute or a reserve handle or ANYTHING on exit. Yeah, you could jump if something went wrong (of course YOU will wear a parachute right?), but dodging the rotors is another issue!!

 

there are also issues of insurance, and what Frank might think of this...

 

oh yeah, and the fact that the skydivers will tear up the side of the helo getting out onto the skids, you can count on one of them stepping on or hitting the strut covers, again i shiver.

 

i would think that it can be done and live thru it.. but for what??

 

sorry, just the FOG in me speaking out..

 

 

dp

[helorob]

The whole concept sounds a bit scary to me as well. But, as with many helicopter operations, it really depends on how well everything is set up and thought out. I don't feel qualified to do this with only 250 hrs, but I know several pilots that have flown the parachute drops in the 44 and have no problems.

 

There was an accident last summer in the Chicago area with a 44, that occurred during a parachute event. The acccident was not during parachute operations and was for other reasons. However, it appears the the pilots doing this have dropped off dramaticly since. Pathfinder has prohibited parachute flights as well. It may be worth checking out your insurance paperwork to see if they consider this a 'covered' activity.

 

I am curious to see how the helicpter parachute activity goes this summer in our area.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

You need to get in contact with Show Copters out of Salinas,Ca. If you attended the helicopter airshow in San Carlos you most likely know who I am talking about. Anyway, they have someone jump out of an R-44 as part of the show.

 

JD

[Trans Lift]

I just had a guy asking if he could do a jump out of our 300C. Sounds like fun to me, gotta check with the boss first though about CofG limits with somone exiting. Anyone ever done it from a schweizer?

[FLHooker]

FL Chinooks do it all the time, We turn on the green light, then walk off the ramp, BOOM - they're gone. We don't have a change in CG, even with 20 dudes leavin'. We tape down anything by the ramp that they could even possibly get caught on.

[Hovergirl]

At least in an R22 a solo pilot is required to sit on the right, and the tail rotor is on the left. Not only should that left door stay closed, but I for one would not like to jump out on the spinny side...

[Darkhorse]

Chinooks are easy, make sure everything is out of the way, ramp down and tape up any floor tie downs. Huey remove all the seats, put seat belts on the floor, tape up ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that protrudes or can snag (including on the skids). Sorry no idea's about an R44, a huey you can feel the cg shift if you have a couple big guys go out the same side at the same time. I'm sure it is much more pronounced on an R44 but I am ignorant on that helo so no speculation.

[Goldy]

The 44 I fly has been involved in several jumps, although I have not. I'll ask a couple of the pilots for the procedures they follow.

 

Goldy

[pilot51]

Thanks for the feedback and great input so far!

 

Keep it coming, I appreciate it!

 

Thanks.

 

pilot51

[Infidel Paratrooper]

I have a couple static line jumps from a UH-60. The crew tapes up everything around the doors. Four jumpers sit on each side of the aircraft. The jumpers sit facing outward with feet hanging out the doors. One jumper exits at a time; usually alternating, one jumper from left side, one jumper from the right side, etc., etc. After all jumpers have exited the aircraft the jumpmaster pulls the static lines back in the aircraft. The lines aren’t long enough to get caught in the tail rotors.

 

Even military jumps from helo's are sketchy. I witnessed a "towed jumper" on one of those Blackhawk jumps. The jumper's chute got caught on a safety strap that they put across the door during ascent. Apparently the jumpmaster failed to secure the strap. The hook on the safety strap caught on the packed chute right after the jumper exited. The jumper was dangling about five feet below the aircraft. The jumpmaster lowered a safety line to the jumper and he fastened it to his harness. The pilots descended and brought the aircraft to a hover just above the ground so the jumper could be freed.

 

You could definitely jump from a R44. But I wouldn’t do it without proper training. That's just my three cents.

[wulfman76]

Having hauled skydivers for about 400hrs in FW i think the whole draw for them to jump from a helicopter is that there is zero or near zero airspeed on exit. Aparently its a different experience than jumping out of a FW and instantly hitting the air at 70-90kts. Forget static line, I would say only 1 in 10 drop zones use this on a regular basis. Even then, it might only be for the first 6-7 jumps someone makes.

 

If its zero a/s then i don't think the tail rotor should be an issue.

 

As far as CG, how would it be any different than either having a passenger in a seat or not? I realize there would be a moment when they jump that you should be ready to correct for the "change" of CG. I dont think it would be all that different than dropping people on a hillside to steep to land....skids 2' off the ground.....guy jumps out.....you fly away. No big deal, and with no hill to worry about it should be even easier.

 

Don't get me wrong, this isn't something to take lightly but i don't think it would be as difficult as you might think.

B

[Gomer Pylot]

I've done this on both ends, but in larger helicopters than the Robinson. I don't see how you could get 3 jumpers plus a pilot airborne without exceeding max gross weight by a lot. You can't put the jumpers on the landing gear, because it isn't stressed for that load from above. You may well lose the gear, and you'll certainly exceed the allowed load.

 

You can certainly slow to a lower airspeed, but never to zero. There is no way you're going to be able to hover OGE, so don't even consider it. The tail rotor isn't a huge problem, because the jumpers should drop well below it. I've never come close to the tail rotor on a UH1, from which I made most of my helicopter jumps. I really don't think a Robinson is suitable for this, though, and I think you really need to consider getting a much larger model.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Showcopters does this out of a Robinson so it is possible. Not sure what modifications have been done to the helicopter though. Best bet would be to contact them or wait for Goldy to get in tough with his contacts.

 

JD

[Eric Hunt]

I've dropped jumpers from Enstrom, B206, UH-1 and B212 and none of the jumpers wanted zero airspeed. They want about 40kt, enough to stabilize them and avoid tumbling, but not too much to make the exit difficult.

 

If you have one on each side and they fall off at the same time (NOT jump off) the cg change is manageable.

[Gomer Pylot]

I once had about 10 German jumpers in a UH1 at 10,000', looking for the drop zone through the clouds. They got a glimpse of it, and they all exited immediately. No CG problems, but the change in altitude was rather dramatic, as the power required to maintain level flight was reduced very quickly. They didn't ask, didn't tell, just suddenly jumped out.

[bossman]

12 at a time out of both sides of a Sikorsky S-55BT at 12,000 feet. Not any adverse affect. That's 12 total jumpers not 24.

[FLHooker]

We do static line jumpers at 90 kts, and the HALO guys, we'll slow it up to about 40 kts or so, but we are sittin' at 12,000'.... so i'm not willing to zero out the airspeed. I've had request for 'as slow as you can go' and 'as fast as you can go' from the HALO guys.

 

Even had a guy walk up to me at an airshow asking if he can just jump out when we were en route back to our facility. He had his chute in the car. NO, big time NO. It was funny though.

 

I would imagine that the biggest concern for a 44 doing paradrops would be a hung jumper, but they aren't doing static line, so I don't think that it would be a concern. What do you do if he gets caught on his way out? well, for us, he becomes a slingload at that point, and we lower him to the ground (just like Infidel said).

 

 

CHAD

[Rat]

Pilot51, check out Mauna Loa helicopters website. They have a video on the mainpage dropping two guys from a R44.

[pilot51]

Thanks Rat for the video tip.

 

I checked it out and can recommend watching it to anybody interested in this topic.

 

Here is what I am thinking about this video:

 

1. Seat belts were buckled up, so that makes sense. Nothing dangling out the door in the decent.

Unfortunately you can not see if the guys were buckled up before exiting.

 

2. It looks like they did not remove the headset(s) in the rear.

I would do it, so it won"t fall out of the helo and cause a T/R failure.

 

3. Standing on the skids

First of all this helo has pop out floats where you can even read in the video "No step"

So that might be an issue for the insurance in case something happens.... .

 

But I would like to understand a littler better as far as the load from above is stressing the landing gear too much.

 

I guess my question is: Which part of the landing gear is not stressed for this load?

If I look at the cross member tube I think it is welded on each side so the outward spread skids cause it to bend downwards while on the ground, holding the MTOW of 2500 lbs. So technically I think if it can bend downward and hold 2500 lbs it should be able to bend "upwards" and hold 550lbs worth of skydivers because the tube does not care which way it bends.

So the actual weak point might be how the cross member tube is connected to the airframe.

If it is only a simple set of brackets just designed to hold the few pounds of landing gear (while in flight) then I understand. But if it is welded as well I am back to square one....

Unfortunately I did not find any picture on the web where you can see that and the next R44 is a few miles away....

 

So please feel free to shed some light on this.

As always, great input so far.

 

Thanks!

 

Pilot51

[heli.pilot]

When I attended the safety course, Frank was very clear about not applying any down-loading to the landing gear. The gear is designed only for up-loads. He was very clear about not attaching any object to the skids, and not standing on the skids.

 

It sounds like it can be done, but should it?

[pilot51]

I was at the safety course in the spring of 2006 and unfortunately I do not remember Frank saying anything about down-loading of the landing gear. The only thing I remember was that Frank was making it clear there was no liability as far as equipment is concerned which can be mounted to the landing gear. Like those cargo boxes you can see ads for.

That makes perfect sense: Robinson can not be liable for anything they did not design or flight test.

After all Frank is a business man: If Robinson thinks it would be a good and safe idea to design and build cargo boxes mounted on the landing gear, I am sure they would.

 

So the whole stressing of the landing gear caused by the down-load is more a mechanical question, rather then a legal or insurance question. The insurance side can be a show stopper to operations like this anyway.

 

Pilot51

[Gomer Pylot]

I've never inspected the landing gear attachments on a Robinson, but on a Bell206, the gear is attached by clamps held in place by bolts about 3/16" in diameter, two on each clamp. I would never trust my weight on those bolts at altitude. They're not designed to hold much more than the weight of the gear.

[CharyouTree]

I have a couple static line jumps from a UH-60. The crew tapes up everything around the doors. Four jumpers sit on each side of the aircraft. The jumpers sit facing outward with feet hanging out the doors. One jumper exits at a time; usually alternating, one jumper from left side, one jumper from the right side, etc., etc. After all jumpers have exited the aircraft the jumpmaster pulls the static lines back in the aircraft. The lines aren’t long enough to get caught in the tail rotors.

 

We (my unit, not the royal we) don't put jumpers out the left side because of the High Freq antenna. Were you jumping from non-HF equipped aircraft, or is that not an Army wide restriction?

[Greeny]

Make sure your skydivers have enouth experiance and awarness not to kill you

they need to be comfortable enouth on exit to be covering pilot cute and reserve handles

get them to practice exiting the aircraft on the ground to sort out where feet & hands will go

also their exit timint who will count and how to initiate

I like to be stood on the skid with one hand holding on (left)

and one hand covering my pilot shoot to stop any chance of a premature opening (right)

exiting on the same side as the tail rotor is not a problem as far as jumpers hitting it

they will fall well below it

jumpers should not push off the aircraft just lightly step off and fall below

jumping hard away gives the pilot a big swing to sort out on smaller aircraft

 

my biggest worries are:

pilot cutes coming out early

reserve handle getting snagged and pulled on exit

skydivers not knowing the aircraft and exit procedure (where to hold / stand)

skydivers being nervus or over excited as something diferent from the norm and doing stupid random stuff

 

the higher you can get them the happier they will be (and more relaxed)

lots of jumper are nervus when they get much below 3000ft on exit

airspeed is good for you as a pilot and for them

thell them if they want zero airspeed to go get out of a ballon

 

greeny

Edited July 3, 2009 by Greeny