Helicopter "add-on"

[MileHi480B]

I have asked six instructors about the requirements for a helicopter "add-on" for someone who already holds an SEL private license. I have NOT gotten two answers that are the same.

 

Reading the FAA regs are just as confusing. Can anyone lay it out in a simple fashion?

 

Everyone seems to agree that 30 hours is required in a helicopter (although I can't find it in writing) ... of which 20 hours is dual and 10 hours is solo. But I can't find any breakdown of solo requirements, such as "cross-country flights", etc.

 

Any help will be appreciated.

[NC AV8R]

I did a helicopter add-on about a year ago. You are correct. The minumum flight time is 30 hours. However, it will take most pilots about 40 hours to be ready to take the practical test.

 

The regulation that covers aeronautical experience is: 61.109

 

You will need to meet all of the cross-country, night flight and solo flight requirements listed in section ( c ). Section ( c ) covers helicopters.

 

Basically, all the cross-country, night flight and solo experience requirements are the same as for someone who is doing their initial private pilot rating in a helicopter. The only difference is that you will need a minumum of 30 hours in a helicopter instead of the normal 40 hours.

 

I've included section ( c ) of 61.109 so you can see the requirements. All of the requirements are listed after the first paragraph. That first paragraph is confusing but basically what it is saying is you will need 30 hours in a helicopter (20 hours dual, 10 hours solo).

 

 

 

61.109

 

( c ) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107 ( b )(3) of this part, and the training must include at least—

 

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

 

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes—

 

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

 

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

 

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

 

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

 

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

 

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

 

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Edited December 28, 2009 by NC AV8R

[IFLY]

See airplane add-on, its 19 hours unless your doing it in a robbie then it is 30. 20 dual to solo and 10 solo. Could take over 100 hours if your slow picking it up, everyone is different.

 

Jerry

[67november]

this thread was asking the same question only from heli to airplane.

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.c...showtopic=12440

 

 

 

 

 

Any signs of out of line posting and this thread will be shut down also.

this is the only warning.

[R22139RJ]

Going to your original post, you have already figured out that there are different answers for the same question and the only opinion that matters is your local FSDO.

 

There seems to be a healthy debate on dual training. It was always my understanding the the dual training must be in helicopters.

 

40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107 ( b )(3)

 

61.107 ( B )(3) is the area of operations for helicopter private license which would leave me to believe that airplane dual training wouldn't count towards the 20 dual in this area of operation.

 

Call your local FSDO and ignore everyone on the forum, including myself.

Edited December 28, 2009 by R22139RJ

[Pohi]

Yeah, what R22139RJ said.

 

I believe, as does my local FSDO, that 30 hours are needed for the additional private category rating.

 

However this is not important at all, what matters is what your local FSDO believes.

 

They are the ONLY people whose opinion matter.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

[NC AV8R]

So what's with 67novembers threat to shut this thread down? I understand he is a moderator. Did I miss something? Were there comments deleted?

[EC120AV8R]

So what's with 67novembers threat to shut this thread down? I understand he is a moderator. Did I miss something? Were there comments deleted?

 

There was a thread a few days ago titled "Airplane add-on" and it started off well enough. Then there was some disagreement over hours required, and interpretation of the FAR and it turned into a juvenile two-man bash fest of some seasoned and knowlegable posters.

[bossman]

this thread was asking the same question only from heli to airplane.

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.c...showtopic=12440

 

 

 

 

 

Any signs of out of line posting and this thread will be shut down also.

this is the only warning.

67,

I did not see any out of line postings on the other thread. It was a healthy debate over the reading of the FARs. If this site can't take a little back and forth discussion, I don't understand what it's here for. I guess we could spend our time complimenting each other on what a good job of agreeing that we are doing. Climb down off the podium and join the ranks. If we cannot disagree on this forum you can just take me off the books. I've never been one to not state my opinion.

Mike Holbrook

MARPAT Aviation

mholb61526@aol.com

304-752-0094

bossman

[bossman]

There was a thread a few days ago titled "Airplane add-on" and it started off well enough. Then there was some disagreement over hours required, and interpretation of the FAR and it turned into a juvenile two-man bash fest of some seasoned and knowlegable posters.

We may get a little juvenile sometimes, but I did not see any bashing going on. A little banter back and forth is healthy. This forum gets real boring every now and then. I'm getting a bit air sick watching all the pats on the back.

[rick1128]

Yeah, what R22139RJ said.

 

I believe, as does my local FSDO, that 30 hours are needed for the additional private category rating.

 

However this is not important at all, what matters is what your local FSDO believes.

 

They are the ONLY people whose opinion matter.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

 

Actually, the only opinions that have any weight are those issued by an Administrative Law Judge. And the only interpretations that mean any thing are those issued by FAA Legal. While the FSDO may have their own opinions or interpretations, that is not their job and they have no weight if a ALJ or FAA Legal say different.

[Rogue]

We may get a little juvenile sometimes, but I did not see any bashing going on. A little banter back and forth is healthy. This forum gets real boring every now and then. I'm getting a bit air sick watching all the pats on the back.

 

no sir you missed a whole page of CRAP that got deleted.....

[helonorth]

Yeah, what R22139RJ said.

 

I believe, as does my local FSDO, that 30 hours are needed for the additional private category rating.

 

However this is not important at all, what matters is what your local FSDO believes.

 

They are the ONLY people whose opinion matter.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/

I beg to differ. As far as I know, the FSDO does not certify pilots. Oklahoma City does. If your examiner accepts your time and Oklahoma City accepts it, who cares what the FSDO thinks.

[bossman]

I beg to differ. As far as I know, the FSDO does not certify pilots. Oklahoma City does. If your examiner accepts your time and Oklahoma City accepts it, who cares what the FSDO thinks.

helonorth has hit the nail on the head. It's still 19 hours.

[bossman]

no sir you missed a whole page of CRAP that got deleted.....

I must have missed some stuff. I really did not see anything in what we were passing back and forth that would warrant being shut down. If I missed some posts that needed shutting down then I would agree with the decision. Keep up the good work 67.

[Pohi]

I beg to differ. As far as I know, the FSDO does not certify pilots. Oklahoma City does. If your examiner accepts your time and Oklahoma City accepts it, who cares what the FSDO thinks.

 

Your examiner does, that's who.

 

If what the examiner accepts differs from what the FSDO thinks, then those two groups will need to get on board with each other until they agree.

[Pohi]

Actually, the only opinions that have any weight are those issued by an Administrative Law Judge. And the only interpretations that mean any thing are those issued by FAA Legal. While the FSDO may have their own opinions or interpretations, that is not their job and they have no weight if a ALJ or FAA Legal say different.

 

Right.

 

Then where's the phone number for FAA legal? Would like to speak to this Administrative Law Judge, I have a question about the regulations.

[helonorth]

Your examiner does, that's who.

 

If what the examiner accepts differs from what the FSDO thinks, then those two groups will need to get on board with each other until they agree.

Youre grasping at straws. Why are you so concerned about the FSDO? They take their orders from Oklahoma, not the other way around. Why are you so interested in involving the FSDO in this? Probably because they told you what you wanted to hear. My examiner is a grown up. I'll let him decide how he wants to deal with the FAA.

[apiaguy]

I agree with helonorth...

 

The FSDO sometimes takes a stance on things they have no business doing and many times they are proved wrong by higher up.

I have had experience with our FSDO trying to interpret the Inspection Authorization requirements that says you must be "actively engaged" and they interpret that to mean "full time" or "40 hours per week".... well that is a load of crap and they finally got told by the legal department and dropped their attempts at shutting people down.

 

I have yet to meet an FAA inspector that fully understands anything.... most guys have limited experience in what they are overseeing... sometimes none. They ARE trying to do what they think is right... manytimes that logic is flawed from the get-go.

[rick1128]

Youre grasping at straws. Why are you so concerned about the FSDO? They take their orders from Oklahoma, not the other way around. Why are you so interested in involving the FSDO in this? Probably because they told you what you wanted to hear. My examiner is a grown up. I'll let him decide how he wants to deal with the FAA.

 

Actually, the FSDO's are suppose to take their orders from Washington. Oklahoma City is not in the same loop as the FSDO's.

 

As for talking with FAA Legal, they have offices in each regional office and in Washington. I have never had a problem talking with them. But keep in mind their interpretations only have weight when they are in writing. There are several ALJ's and the only way they will talk with you is when you in front of them when FAA legal brings your case before them.

[Pohi]

Youre grasping at straws. Why are you so concerned about the FSDO? They take their orders from Oklahoma, not the other way around. Why are you so interested in involving the FSDO in this? Probably because they told you what you wanted to hear. My examiner is a grown up. I'll let him decide how he wants to deal with the FAA.

 

I love the FSDO. They make delicious coffee and cookies. So therefore, any chance to go see the guys and gals at the local FSDO is a blessing.

 

Thanks for the info on the age of your examiner.

 

Yes, you also hit the nail on the head. My local FSDO agrees with me and I love them for it.

 

Of course, on the other hand, so do both of the flight schools and the local DPE. I guess I happen to live in the right neck of the woods, or perhaps I believe what I was taught. Who knows?

 

But keep in mind their interpretations only have weight when they are in writing.

 

I have a copy of those, it's called the regulations

[R22139RJ]

I don't really care about anyone's opinion on this matter. I'll do what I think is right. As for the 67november warning, it is deserved for myself and another member.

 

You see.

 

Fresh squeezed orange juice really masks the taste of vodka and may have been having a "playful" debate with Pohi who agrees with me on this matter for something to do in between call of duty games.

 

If every FSDO took their orders from Oklahoma, why is it possible to get two different answers from two FSDOs?

[NC AV8R]

I stumbled across this on the FAA website. It's an Aeronautical Experience Checklist. It explains the requirements for additional category and additional class ratings. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headqu...ia/aero-exp.doc

[NC AV8R]

I noticed MileHiR44 hasn't posted anything else on this thread. He's the one who started it. I think we confused him even more than he was to begin with.

 

Hopefully we didn't scare him off.

[avbug]

Right.

 

Then where's the phone number for FAA legal? Would like to speak to this Administrative Law Judge, I have a question about the regulations.

 

An ALJ won't be found at FAA Legal.

 

FAA Legal represents the FAA. You can present legal questions to the FAA Chief or Regional Legal Counsel, and receive a written Letter of Interpretation (Legal Opinion). This typically takes several months to a year or more.

 

A Letter of Interpretation from the Chief Legal Counsel represents the official position of the Administrator on FAA regulation or policy, and is defensible in enforcement proceedings or Administrative court.

 

The FSDO never has the authority to interpret regulation. Even a written statement on the interpretation of a regulation at the FSDO level has zero value (you'll sometimes hear someone say "get it in writing from the FSDO:" this is always bad advice, as it carries no weight). You can never act based on what you've been told at the FSDO, and expect it to back you up...because if the FSDO tells you something that's contrary to the regulation, the FSDO a) doesn't have the authority, and can't excuse your action. The statement at the FSDO level will never support you.

 

That said, the original poster wanted to know about adding on a rotorcraft category rating to an existing fixed-wing private pivate pilot certificate. As the original poster already holds a Private Pilot certificate with an airplane rating, the issue is adding a category at the private pilot level.

 

In order to accomplish this, the student will require 20 hours of dual instruction in helicopters, and must have at least 10 hours of solo. The student will require more time, in actuality, but this is the legal minimum.

 

While the student has performed certain training as a private pilot in airplanes, the student must still undergo certain training in helicopters, which includes:

 

3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter.

3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter, that includes at least 1 cross-country flight of over 50 nm. total distance; and 10 takeoffs and 10 landings with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern.

3 hours of flight training in a helicopter within the preceding 60 days prior to the practical test.

 

The student must also do 10 hours of solo flight practicing the private pilot areas of operation in a helicopter, including:

 

3 hours of solo cross-country flying in a helicopter, including at one solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nm. total distance with 3 points and one segment of at least 25 nm. between takeoff and landing.

3 takeoffs and landings at a controlled airport in a helicopter.

 

That's it for the legal requirements.

 

What the student will actually take to be proficient and be able to pass the practical test, is entirely another matter, and depends very much on the student, the school, the frequency of training, etc.