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Private Pilots renting helicopters and taking Passengers


Boatpix

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The first time I flew after my licence issue was with a friend, 3 off field landings. (sites the FI & I had used in training)

I asked if it was OK his comment was "have you explained the risk to your pax regarding your lowish hour?".

I was not going to try to kill my self or my friend, The flight examiner must have thought me at least competent to have a licence,the FI\owner happy I would return his pride & joy

The instructor always did of field stuff every lesson, saying how many times will you use airfields with helicopter? get use to different scenarios, do the sighting circuit LOOK for the wires, bushes, stumps, uneven ground & THE WAY OUT.

Perhaps that's why he let me loose.

Had to prise friend out after 1.2 offering to pay for further time,

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I understand both sides. From the stories posted it doesn't seem so much as a Private pilots ability as it was the decisions they made. Come on, a jail break and a suicide?

 

The botched autorotation I can understand however, most rental places don't allow for practice emergency procedures.

 

What is the point of becoming a Private Pilot if you can't take passengers? What needs to happen is true ADM needs to be taught. Aviation Decision Making is hardly ever taught if at all. That cycle needs to be broken.

 

Even 300+ hour CFIs are making bad choices.

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Tom...what data are you looking for exactly? I have never had a PPL do any damage to an aircraft. I (we) have had many CFI's do damage to aircraft. That is pretty specific data.

 

Randy

Randy,

 

Simple. Pathfinder requires 100 hours and RHC school to rent helicopter to PPL to carry passenger. We picked up the pieces from Heliflight, Volar and CavAir at FXE when they went out of business. Volar had two smashes when they didn't qualify ppl's on solos. One was a fatal with a ppl and a passenger. A FATAL. The other was a smash on a jailbreak from a poorly qualified solo student. Injuries. My rules are that no one goes on a solo other than what is required for ppl, cpl, etc., and they GO SOLO WITHOUT PASSENGERS to meet FAR requirements only under the supervision of a cif. The helicopter is not a toy and if you want to have "fun" do it elsewhere. The question started when a Swiss student that learned from the now defunct Volar wanted to carry his girlfriend on a PPL solo flight and I said "no" as I tell even my cfi's that they can't carry mom, dad, the kids or the girlfriend because I've read enough accident statistics. He said that Volar allowed it. I couldn't tell him that people died as that would be unprofessional. He told me I was an idiot and in a rare case I said nothing. I said that I will gladly line the pockets of my competitors that have more of an appetite for risk than I do and I know an Atlanta student went to my competitor to take his girlfriend up as the CFI at the competing school told me at HeliSuccess that he was a good stick (although I've never actually met him). I know the Swiss student went to a "school" that a former PPL student of mine set up. But they don't have a clue about what can happen and have never gone to a funeral before. The fellow is a PPL that leased a helicopter. They just wanted the money. I don't need the money or the accidents. The question is (and confirmed by my culture of multiple PPL wrecks with passengers [including one the week that initiated this post because of s300 into a ballfield} is how likely is it that a ppl with a passenger has a wreck? Certainly if you can eliminate the tailrotor accident on a Notar you can eliminate the ppl carrying a passenger accident by not letting the ppl carry a passenger (FYI, you'll never see one of my helicopers on a dolly and you'll never see doors on my helicopters as no dolly, no dolly accident. No doors on the helicopter and you'll never see the doors come off an strike the tail rotor).

 

 

 

I noted that I feel that a ppl should be with a CFI doing continually "advanced" manuevers and learning his trade with the CFI rather than taking a joy flight. I acknowledge that my FAA counterpart for our certificate says that "that is why you get a ppl to carry a passenger" but I think you get a ppl to get a cpl and a job and I want them alive and flying advanced training and taking pictures of boats. I'm fully transparent with this.

 

I asked this in an email to Matt Z from HAI and he didn't respond. No one seems to know. But, I've read enough accident statistics to say "no."

 

We have an R44 in Pompano. Dude, calls me up and say he rented it from the previous owner. Dude is a ppl and took his friends up. I say "no." Skydiver calls and want the R44 for jump out of. I say "no".

 

You say you've never had a ppl have an accident but MANY OTHERS have? Maybe you screen them a little bit better?

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Randy,

 

I noted that I feel that a ppl should be with a CFI doing continually "advanced" manuevers and learning his trade with the CFI rather than taking a joy flight...I think you get a ppl to get a cpl and a job and I want them alive and flying advanced training and taking pictures of boats. I'm fully transparent with this.

 

The definition of a "Private Pilot" is a pilot who flies for pleasure or business. Nowhere in the FAA regulations does it mention that a person who possesses a PPL must then proceed to a CPL. Not every private pilot wants to be a commercial pilot or pursue aviation as a trade (and who can blame them?).

 

Anyone who possesses a private pilot certificate has proven to a certified instructor and an FAA examiner that they posses the skills and knowledge required to act as pilot in command of an aircraft. If that isn't the case, then they should not have the certificate.

 

As an aircraft owner, you certainly have the right to dictate who rents your aircraft and how they are used. I can understand your trepidation if a stranger knocks on your door and wants to rent, but if your school trains someone and they earn a PPL as a culmination of your training program, then I think you are doing them a disservice if you don't allow them to exercise their privileges as a private pilot.

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Everyone that flies a helicopter does not do it for a job. Some do it for the "love of flying". When it becomes just a job, the thrill is gone and it is time to move on. Being able to fly a helicopter, airplane, or operate any type of equipment is something to be proud of. To make a machine perform to it's specifications is something not everyone can do, and when it is all said and done, a helicopter is just a machine and it will only do what you allow it to do. I'll put our 400 hour PPLs up against any CPL with 400 hours and a CFI flying around the airport with students or taking pictures of boats. I guarantee you that my PPLs have done more off airport, different situations, high recons, low recons, and real world flying than most CFIs. I know they have flown a greater variety of helicopters. So, I totally disagree with Boatpix's view of the PPLs and their abilities. I agree that the money to be made from renting an aircraft to qualified PPLs does not come near to paying the insurance premium, but seeing the pride and joy felt by the pilot and their passengers goes a long way toward making it all worthwhile. Not everyone is in this for the money. Some of us enjoy going to the airport.

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(FYI, you'll never see one of my helicopers on a dolly and you'll never see doors on my helicopters as no dolly, no dolly accident. No doors on the helicopter and you'll never see the doors come off an strike the tail rotor).

 

Tom- not to change the subject but I think you are far safer from having something fly into the tailrotor if you keep doors on, especially on the side of the tailrotor. More likely that something will fly out and enter the tail than a door falling off and doing the same. Just a thought.

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Tom- not to change the subject but I think you are far safer from having something fly into the tailrotor if you keep doors on, especially on the side of the tailrotor. More likely that something will fly out and enter the tail than a door falling off and doing the same. Just a thought.

 

If you are a Robinson test pilot and you fly with the left door off you will be fired. I believe there was a fatal incident where a knee-board took out the tail rotor.

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As a pilot I have a personal policy to have the door on and secured closed for which ever side the tailrotor may be on.

 

As a CFI I required it for solo students.

 

Having said that there are some situations which may present itself in which a door may need to be opened in flight or taken off prior to flight. Photo flights and my line of work (EMS) are two comon situations. Photo flights, that is obvious. EMS, some times on a scene I may have the crew open the sliding door in order for them to have a better view and clear the LZ better on short approach.

 

In all situations this is briefed and we ensure that the cabin is secure first before doors are opened or after removal.

 

Sorry to get off topic.

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By definition, a Private Pilot can take up a passenger, an should be able to. If the DE/FAA passed him, he should be good to go. The good thing is, every flight school is free to make their own decision on who to rent to. That being said, when I got my Private I took my wife and kids up one at a time on helicopter flights.....at a three foot hover around the airport. Being able to demonstrate an auto to an examiner and being able to do one safely cold with a passenger is a whole other ball game. I'd do it now in a heartbeat. Back then, not so much!

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If you are a Robinson test pilot and you fly with the left door off you will be fired. I believe there was a fatal incident where a knee-board took out the tail rotor.

 

Yes, there have been a few. Including one where the fish and game gal lost a clipboard and killed everybody on approach. Frank is fanatic about leaving the tail rotor side door on at all times.

 

FYI- The new R66 POH says to keep the door closed, but unlocked! They feel its safer for egress, and for rescuers to get into the helicopter. That took a bit of unlearning for me...I kept wanting to lock the door.

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Goldy, you shouldn't be locking an aircraft door prior to flight anyway. Many checklists have it listed as a checkable item. The CHP is giving you California guys some bad habits.

 

Schools that don't rent to their students doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about the quality of their training. Not so much about having bad instructors, it more about getting a nagging feeling that the school knows something that they are not telling their students and prospective students about the quality of their training.

 

In some ways, helicopters operators are in the same boat as seaplane operators. High insurance costs and high deductibles. You can understand why they are not rented very freely, like we see in the land airplane world. A great deal if it comes down to relationships. A student at a school develops a relationship with that school. They become familiar with each other and the rentals work of that relationship. There are several helicopters operators I have done business with over the years, that I have no doubt, if I asked, they would rent me one of their machines. I didn't go to their flight school or fly for them. But we had a business relationship.

 

As for doors coming off, I have no personal knowledge of a door coming off in flight. I am not saying it hasn't happen or couldn't happen. I just have no personal knowledge of that happening. But Tom your statement, while I have very minimal knowledge of Robinson design and engineering, doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about Robinson's engineering or quality control. Things do come out of helicopters and can hit the tail rotor. A gentleman I was acquainted with, several years ago had a fatal accident flying an AStar. The FAA listed the probable cause as his catching a snag while flying low. However, the Chief Pilot and I found pieces of what appeared to be a USFS water jug mixed in with the tail rotor pieces. He had picked up a rappelling crew just before the accident. Knowing how these crews normally operate and the pickup area, it is quite likely that the pilot stayed at the controls and the crew loaded their gear, closed the compartment door and climbed in. These baggage doors did not have any sort of door warning. So the baggage door could have been improperly closed and came open in flight. We will never know. And this is a very experienced pilot and fire crew.

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Is that the one in Idaho in the Hiller? Or was there another with a Robbie?

 

I recall it being in an R44. As far as doors coming off, I think there were some issues with the non Robinson bubble doors, which were fixed by the mfg. by adding multiple locations where a bolt slides over the door opening, instead of the original one location.

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Sorry to bump an older thread, but I feel the need to add to the conversation.

 

My school recently had a couple renters come from another local school. One of the renters was a CFI there, and the other was working on his CFI. Their policy was to not allow students to rent for personal use (i.e. flying family, friends, etc, regardless of experience). Even their CFIs weren't allowed to rent helicopters for personal use, and the two of them couldn't train together because they were "friends".... The CFI candidate couldn't even rent for solo flight, which i assume is just a money making policy for the school (at $265/hr to boot!)... Keep in mind, this is a person who 10 hours later would be certified to take someone with no experience up and hand the controls over!

 

Because of that, they came to us. We were happy to rent to them, after a brief proficiency flight to confirm their abilities and decision making skills. They used the time to train and build time while paying a solo rate saving substantial money. IMHO, flying friends and family is an important part of your training. Its a confidence booster and not being allowed to do so seems like a lack in confidence in the ability of the pilot on the part of the school.

 

Allowing PPLs to rent has never been a problem for us. We know our students, and we know they won't be irresponsible. If we thought they were, we would never sign them off for solo, the test, or allow them to rent from us. We set reasonable limits on winds, vis, etc. We also don't allow off airport landings and flying into mountains. It is only once the students finish their CPL that these restrictions are lessened.

 

Tom, it's your business, and your prerogative who you rent to and for what, but I feel your draconian policy on renters only serves to reduce the confidence of pilots and deprive them the joy of sharing their love of flying with friends and family. The idea that a pilot who has been completely competent while flying with an instructor will suddenly become a hotdogging lunatic when a friend jumps in is just plain ridiculous.

 

Thats just my $.02. The parallel between what my renters this week had experienced at their school made me want to speak up......

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I will not attend a school that would not rent to me once I am rated. If it was an industry standard to not allow pilots to rent and take friends and family up, I might walk away all together. My dad has always had a love for flying but due to some circumstances his dream to be a pilot slipped away. I would love to see the excitement in his eyes if I could one day stop by and pick him up in a heli and suprise him with one of them $1000 burgers I been hearing about.

 

I'm glad to hear Tom's view on the subject does not carry accross the entire industry. I now have one more question to ask before picking my flight school.

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gary-mike, do not pick a school by which one will rent to you later as a pilot and not being a student. Also, you stated that you wanted to "drop by" and pick up your dad? Do you think you will be able to land at your dads place and pick him up? Many good schools do not carry renters insurance to keep cost of operation down and provide great instruction with great staff and equipment & facilities.

 

Having said that, I agree that a Private Pilot Certificate holder that is proficient and current and NOT out to show off should be able to safely act as PIC and carry passengers.

 

Individual Insurance companies vary their rates to flight schools depending on this point of renter pilots! Many flight schools would not be in business if they HAD to pay renters premiums.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Mike

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Mike, I know better than to base my choice solely from thier renting policy. And I do plan to go through CFII training, so at that point the PPL rental would not aply anyway. As for landing at my dads place yes, as far as I know (wich isn't much) I should be able to land in the field behind his house. I imagine that authorization for airport landings varies depending on the companies policy and insurance. However from what I understand the laws in the FARs only require you have permision from the property owner and land where it is safe and you will not damage property. If I am wrong, I am sure I will learn that in my training. If I must stick to the airports that is fine too, might be less of a surprise but fun just the same. If we were all rich I guess we would all own our own birds and not have to worry about renting one.....Come on Power Ball!!

 

Thanks for the INFO and feel free to set me straight, it could help prevent some disapointment down the road.

Edited by gary-mike
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By the way, my pilots only pay for fuel when they use the helicopters for their family. $106.25 per hour for the FH1100. $361.25 per hour for the Huey. $212.50 for the BO105.

 

First off, those are some very reasonable rates, props.

 

As far as the subject at hand...I would have been really upset if I wasn't able to take friends/family flying after achieving my PPL. I couldn't imagine. When you are a student pilot, you are working your butt off and paying out of it as well. There has to be small rewards to keep the motivation strong IMO. Sure some people don't need that but you can bet that they want it.

When I got my PPL, I flew up to my parents local airport and picked up my dad. Flew to another airport about 15 min away that has a restaurant, bought him breakfast and flew him back. It was a HUGE highlight in the early stages of my career and years later, it still comes up now and then on the holidays.

It's sad that you are depriving people of that IMO.

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In my mind there is a big difference between someone who has finished their PPL and wants to take a friend up with them and someone who is a student pilot and wants to take someone on their required solo flight. The first is someone who is following all the rules and has the required qualifications. The second is someone who is knowingly breaking the FAR's.

 

Basing my business decisions on someone who I wouldn't let train at my school and someone who's only intent is to effect a jailbreak doesn't seem very reasonable.

 

That said, they are your machines.

 

I thought my school had a reasonable program, qualified private pilots who had trained there could rent an aircraft as long as their flight plan was checked and approved beforehand.

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Hey all,

 

i have wanted to get back to this topic for a few days, but have been really too busy.. i will try to cover all of my thoughts briefly. (no really) :-)

 

First, private pilots flying our aircraft for fun or to fly their friends: This is a touchy subject as there are so many different scenarios. The issue is, for us anyway, that we have to think about EVERYONE involved with our school, not just the person that wants to fly for fun or share their accomplishments with their friends. If there is an incident, no matter how incidental, it will affect our insurance rates and might take a helicopter off the line which would affect every one, not just us or the people flying the helicopter. A severe crash could shut us down completely which would hurt every single person involved, some dramatically. We have been accused of being overly cautious, but at this time, knock on wood, we are the ONLY helicopter flight school in our area that has not had a crash, and we'd like to keep it that way (most have had more than one)!!

 

We do allow private pilots to rent our aircraft, but we are very picky and have stringent rules (and we pay extra for insurance to allow this type of rental)... most folks we require that they are in current training with us and secure a second certification, either commercial or instrument. We have allowed some private pilots to fly their friends but ONLY after they flew an additional ten hours after their check ride and then a stage check with another CFI.. and of course they must be very current.. The hardest part, for me anyway, is that if you decide to allow people to fly your aircraft without CFIs on board, you have to be able to say NO to some of them.. and that sucks, but, once again, we have to think about everyone!!

 

We have some folks that fly once in a while to keep current, most of them are high time pilots, most dual trained, but we insist that they fly one hour with a CFI first for an eval and then they can go out on their own. Most understand completely.. and if they don't.. they can fly somewhere else.

 

Second: Doors on or off: We LOVE to fly doors off, but again, are very picky about that... and double-check any time the helo goes out with the doors off. I have included a photo of our 300c doors that we had reinforcements added to last year when we complied to a Service Bulletin from Schwiezer.. I understand this was due to a door coming off in flight but don't know the particulars.. The little welded bars were added to keep the locking pins from coming out. If we take passengers with doors off we spend extra time going over the issues with them as many things could go out the doors and we realize that. On one flight i was in the back seat on a photo flight, the pilot started having trouble with his headset and asked me to switch with him.. when pulled my bose off i almost lost my hat out the door.. things can happen really quickly and go bad even faster.. so i totally understand if someone decides to fly with doors on all of the time..

 

hope this helps..

 

aloha,

 

dp

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Hey DP,

 

You are only a Private pilot right? Do fly your aircraft solo??

 

 

Good question, and yes to both, but our rules also apply to me. I wanted to bring up that there is a difference in 'solo' flying by your self, and flying with friends and or family. We are much happier to have a pilot take our ships out on a solo flight by themselves or with another rated pilot than with unrated pilots on board... especially at a low hour level (but that doesn't mean we don't allow it).

 

I personally didn't take anyone with me after my private until around 150 hours and that was my son... but my training was different than most students.. i was flying a lot and had a ton of flights that many in training wouldn't get.. multiple turbine platforms, mountain flights and long cross countries.. i had also been to the Robinson Safety Course.

 

Now days i stay current, but am too busy to fly a lot (and there is always someone else that needs the slot more than i), so, if i do get the chance to ferry a ship to or from maintenance to facilitate me keeping more current (usually about an hour flight), i will do so alone, and after a tune-up flight with a CFI.. if i don't get the tune-up i will fly with a CFI or let one of the team have the flight. It usually ends up with someone else making the flight!

 

Some of the hardest things for me for example, was giving up my flights when Lyn and then Mike Franz came out to visit.. they had time for only one flight.. of course i wanted to fly with them.. but, i try to put those of my team and others first.. as i have done many cool things in my life and like to see others grow.

 

Besides all that, i like flying with my pilot friends and most of them are CFIs! I plan to take my family for a Christmas Light tour in then next week or so.. I will make that flight with a CFI next to me.. everyone knows i can fly, i have nothing to prove.

 

Lastly.. i will have a helicycle one day.. and i will fly the crap out of it!!! :-)

 

dp

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Lastly.. i will have a helicycle one day.. and i will fly the crap out of it!!! :-)

 

dp

 

How about a Helicycle on steroids with the new RR300 in it?

 

Interesting that many choices in our helicopter adventures are really governed by insurance companies and not the FAA. What helicopters we can fly, what activities we can do, and how much time we need...all governed by insurance.

 

In this case, all private helicopter insurance that I have seen, does NOT limit carrying of passengers (within reason, 100hrs, RHC school,etc). Since insurance companies assess risks, I take that to mean, they have not seen a lot more risk in private pilots taking/or not taking up passengers.

 

If they saw an increase risk, they would exclude it, or charge you extra for it....they do neither.

 

In fact, I lease ships directly to private pilots...something that most leasing companies wont do...and there is no restriction on carrying passengers.

 

Personally, I took my wife up the day after I got my private, and my kids up next. I figure we all go down together!

 

The kids were fine with it, my wife, however will no longer fly in the R22. Something about doors off on a very cold night flight that took all the fun out of it for her.

 

I do think its a personal choice. Not all private pilots are equal in skill or decision making.

Edited by Goldy
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