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Private Pilots renting helicopters and taking Passengers


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#41 gary-mike

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:01

I will not attend a school that would not rent to me once I am rated. If it was an industry standard to not allow pilots to rent and take friends and family up, I might walk away all together. My dad has always had a love for flying but due to some circumstances his dream to be a pilot slipped away. I would love to see the excitement in his eyes if I could one day stop by and pick him up in a heli and suprise him with one of them $1000 burgers I been hearing about.

I'm glad to hear Tom's view on the subject does not carry accross the entire industry. I now have one more question to ask before picking my flight school.

#42 Mikemv

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:10

gary-mike, do not pick a school by which one will rent to you later as a pilot and not being a student. Also, you stated that you wanted to "drop by" and pick up your dad? Do you think you will be able to land at your dads place and pick him up? Many good schools do not carry renters insurance to keep cost of operation down and provide great instruction with great staff and equipment & facilities.

Having said that, I agree that a Private Pilot Certificate holder that is proficient and current and NOT out to show off should be able to safely act as PIC and carry passengers.

Individual Insurance companies vary their rates to flight schools depending on this point of renter pilots! Many flight schools would not be in business if they HAD to pay renters premiums.

Best Wishes,

Mike
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#43 gary-mike

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 13:41

Mike, I know better than to base my choice solely from thier renting policy. And I do plan to go through CFII training, so at that point the PPL rental would not aply anyway. As for landing at my dads place yes, as far as I know (wich isn't much) I should be able to land in the field behind his house. I imagine that authorization for airport landings varies depending on the companies policy and insurance. However from what I understand the laws in the FARs only require you have permision from the property owner and land where it is safe and you will not damage property. If I am wrong, I am sure I will learn that in my training. If I must stick to the airports that is fine too, might be less of a surprise but fun just the same. If we were all rich I guess we would all own our own birds and not have to worry about renting one.....Come on Power Ball!!

Thanks for the INFO and feel free to set me straight, it could help prevent some disapointment down the road.

Edited by gary-mike, 29 November 2010 - 13:42.


#44 DynamicallyUnstable

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 14:41

By the way, my pilots only pay for fuel when they use the helicopters for their family. $106.25 per hour for the FH1100. $361.25 per hour for the Huey. $212.50 for the BO105.


First off, those are some very reasonable rates, props.

As far as the subject at hand...I would have been really upset if I wasn't able to take friends/family flying after achieving my PPL. I couldn't imagine. When you are a student pilot, you are working your butt off and paying out of it as well. There has to be small rewards to keep the motivation strong IMO. Sure some people don't need that but you can bet that they want it.
When I got my PPL, I flew up to my parents local airport and picked up my dad. Flew to another airport about 15 min away that has a restaurant, bought him breakfast and flew him back. It was a HUGE highlight in the early stages of my career and years later, it still comes up now and then on the holidays.
It's sad that you are depriving people of that IMO.
Fly Safe,

Sebastian

#45 klas

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 18:01

Just remember there are those of us that only have a PPL & don't want or need a CPL. Flying by yourself for the rest of your life ain't exciting.

#46 aclark79

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 18:36

In my mind there is a big difference between someone who has finished their PPL and wants to take a friend up with them and someone who is a student pilot and wants to take someone on their required solo flight. The first is someone who is following all the rules and has the required qualifications. The second is someone who is knowingly breaking the FAR's.

Basing my business decisions on someone who I wouldn't let train at my school and someone who's only intent is to effect a jailbreak doesn't seem very reasonable.

That said, they are your machines.

I thought my school had a reasonable program, qualified private pilots who had trained there could rent an aircraft as long as their flight plan was checked and approved beforehand.
"The ultimate responsibility of the pilot is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions of earthbound ancestors who could only stare skyward and wish." ---anonymous

#47 RkyMtnHI

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 22:42

Hey all,

i have wanted to get back to this topic for a few days, but have been really too busy.. i will try to cover all of my thoughts briefly. (no really) :-)

First, private pilots flying our aircraft for fun or to fly their friends: This is a touchy subject as there are so many different scenarios. The issue is, for us anyway, that we have to think about EVERYONE involved with our school, not just the person that wants to fly for fun or share their accomplishments with their friends. If there is an incident, no matter how incidental, it will affect our insurance rates and might take a helicopter off the line which would affect every one, not just us or the people flying the helicopter. A severe crash could shut us down completely which would hurt every single person involved, some dramatically. We have been accused of being overly cautious, but at this time, knock on wood, we are the ONLY helicopter flight school in our area that has not had a crash, and we'd like to keep it that way (most have had more than one)!!

We do allow private pilots to rent our aircraft, but we are very picky and have stringent rules (and we pay extra for insurance to allow this type of rental)... most folks we require that they are in current training with us and secure a second certification, either commercial or instrument. We have allowed some private pilots to fly their friends but ONLY after they flew an additional ten hours after their check ride and then a stage check with another CFI.. and of course they must be very current.. The hardest part, for me anyway, is that if you decide to allow people to fly your aircraft without CFIs on board, you have to be able to say NO to some of them.. and that sucks, but, once again, we have to think about everyone!!

We have some folks that fly once in a while to keep current, most of them are high time pilots, most dual trained, but we insist that they fly one hour with a CFI first for an eval and then they can go out on their own. Most understand completely.. and if they don't.. they can fly somewhere else.

Second: Doors on or off: We LOVE to fly doors off, but again, are very picky about that... and double-check any time the helo goes out with the doors off. I have included a photo of our 300c doors that we had reinforcements added to last year when we complied to a Service Bulletin from Schwiezer.. I understand this was due to a door coming off in flight but don't know the particulars.. The little welded bars were added to keep the locking pins from coming out. If we take passengers with doors off we spend extra time going over the issues with them as many things could go out the doors and we realize that. On one flight i was in the back seat on a photo flight, the pilot started having trouble with his headset and asked me to switch with him.. when pulled my bose off i almost lost my hat out the door.. things can happen really quickly and go bad even faster.. so i totally understand if someone decides to fly with doors on all of the time..

hope this helps..

aloha,

dp
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#48 Trans Lift

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 23:32

Hey DP,

You are only a Private pilot right? Do fly your aircraft solo??
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#49 RkyMtnHI

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 09:58

Hey DP,

You are only a Private pilot right? Do fly your aircraft solo??



Good question, and yes to both, but our rules also apply to me. I wanted to bring up that there is a difference in 'solo' flying by your self, and flying with friends and or family. We are much happier to have a pilot take our ships out on a solo flight by themselves or with another rated pilot than with unrated pilots on board... especially at a low hour level (but that doesn't mean we don't allow it).

I personally didn't take anyone with me after my private until around 150 hours and that was my son... but my training was different than most students.. i was flying a lot and had a ton of flights that many in training wouldn't get.. multiple turbine platforms, mountain flights and long cross countries.. i had also been to the Robinson Safety Course.

Now days i stay current, but am too busy to fly a lot (and there is always someone else that needs the slot more than i), so, if i do get the chance to ferry a ship to or from maintenance to facilitate me keeping more current (usually about an hour flight), i will do so alone, and after a tune-up flight with a CFI.. if i don't get the tune-up i will fly with a CFI or let one of the team have the flight. It usually ends up with someone else making the flight!

Some of the hardest things for me for example, was giving up my flights when Lyn and then Mike Franz came out to visit.. they had time for only one flight.. of course i wanted to fly with them.. but, i try to put those of my team and others first.. as i have done many cool things in my life and like to see others grow.

Besides all that, i like flying with my pilot friends and most of them are CFIs! I plan to take my family for a Christmas Light tour in then next week or so.. I will make that flight with a CFI next to me.. everyone knows i can fly, i have nothing to prove.

Lastly.. i will have a helicycle one day.. and i will fly the crap out of it!!! :-)

dp
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#50 Goldy

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 13:03

Lastly.. i will have a helicycle one day.. and i will fly the crap out of it!!! :-)

dp


How about a Helicycle on steroids with the new RR300 in it?

Interesting that many choices in our helicopter adventures are really governed by insurance companies and not the FAA. What helicopters we can fly, what activities we can do, and how much time we need...all governed by insurance.

In this case, all private helicopter insurance that I have seen, does NOT limit carrying of passengers (within reason, 100hrs, RHC school,etc). Since insurance companies assess risks, I take that to mean, they have not seen a lot more risk in private pilots taking/or not taking up passengers.

If they saw an increase risk, they would exclude it, or charge you extra for it....they do neither.

In fact, I lease ships directly to private pilots...something that most leasing companies wont do...and there is no restriction on carrying passengers.

Personally, I took my wife up the day after I got my private, and my kids up next. I figure we all go down together!

The kids were fine with it, my wife, however will no longer fly in the R22. Something about doors off on a very cold night flight that took all the fun out of it for her.

I do think its a personal choice. Not all private pilots are equal in skill or decision making.

Edited by Goldy, 04 December 2010 - 15:48.

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#51 gary-mike

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 14:31

I personally think I would be more safety concious with my loved ones lives in my hands. Ok actually I know I would, I drive my car alot differently with them onboard. Plus if my wife was with me and I did anything stupid I would probably end up a missing the jewels.

#52 Shaun

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 15:00

I personally think I would be more safety concious with my loved ones lives in my hands.


This.

Most everyone is a little trepidacious of flying too, my flights with passengers are extra gentle. I also feel solo flying is harder and more dangerous, there's a comfort factor having someone with you.

All the stupid, crazy joy ride fights I know of were duel with the CFI encouraging the student or "demonstrating" something.

Most people with low hours are pretty cautious and fearful of messing up, but feel safer, and will do stupid things, with a CFI.

The time when someone is most likely to have an accident is between 300 and 1,000 hours. This is an airplane statistic but might apply to helicopters.

#53 clay

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 21:14

Hey DP,

You are only a Private pilot right? Do fly your aircraft solo??




Hey, Trans Lift....

do fly aircraft solo? does it matter?. . its his company, I'd say if he wants to fly solo, he can... are you just trying to stir the pot a bit?

Edited by clay, 04 December 2010 - 21:16.

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#54 Trans Lift

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 23:24

Yeah I fly solo everyday for usually about 4-6 hours doing external load. It doesn't matter and I'm not stirring the pot, just wondering if he has a double standard. If I was a student there and not allowed to fly on a PPL, I would wonder why he was?
I understand that he has flown on different machines and all that, but why not go and get a commercial?

Edited by Trans Lift, 04 December 2010 - 23:29.

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#55 clay

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:25

I'm not sure why you would wonder about a double standard? I dont think I read anywhere in his post that he DOESN'T allow private students to take his helicopters. I DID read that he is stringent on who he allows to take them, as should any small school. It makes sense.. you go tear his helicopter up, you put him out of business. I think your just trying to stir sh*t.....

and if your worried about him having his commercial, I'm sure he'd be happily do it if you would forward a blank check with your signature over to him to fund it.

Edited by clay, 05 December 2010 - 06:26.

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#56 Trans Lift

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 18:04

He even said it was a good question. I was just wondering thats all. I shouldn't have said solo, I meant with passengers on board on his own.
Why would I write him a check, he already has the hours by the sounds of things.
Easy now, easy!

Edited by Trans Lift, 05 December 2010 - 18:06.

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#57 Rogue

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:30

WOW! easy is right, that is a perfectly legit question. A question I thought myself.

There seems to be a lot of reinventing the wheel in some cases. Some call it "stump the dummy" in order to milk the customer for more flight time by making him feel stupid because he doesn't know the answer to some obscure question off the top of his head. I guess the modern day version of "stump the dummy" is to "treat people like stupid children and blame it on safety and insurance"

EVERY business takes the same risk when they send someone out for solo or private flight. At the end of the day it is their business and if that is how they want to run it that is fine, but don't come a preaching about how you rationalize that a FAA certified pilot is not good enough to rent. Again if you choose not to rent your aircraft fine, but don't make it out to be the pilot's fault because you are not willing to take a risk in a risky business.

I'll say one more time, if you train a pilot to FAA standards and you are unwilling to let them rent then your standards suck in my opinion.

Good day.

Edited by Rogue, 06 December 2010 - 11:50.

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#58 Boatpix

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 00:13

WOW! easy is right, that is a perfectly legit question. A question I thought myself.

There seems to be a lot of reinventing the wheel in some cases. Some call it "stump the dummy" in order to milk the customer for more flight time by making him feel stupid because he doesn't know the answer to some obscure question off the top of his head. I guess the modern day version of "stump the dummy" is to "treat people like stupid children and blame it on safety and insurance"

EVERY business takes the same risk when they send someone out for solo or private flight. At the end of the day it is their business and if that is how they want to run it that is fine, but don't come a preaching about how you rationalize that a FAA certified pilot is not good enough to rent. Again if you choose not to rent your aircraft fine, but don't make it out to be the pilot's fault because you are not willing to take a risk in a risky business.

I'll say one more time, if you train a pilot to FAA standards and you are unwilling to let them rent then your standards suck in my opinion.

Good day.




I'm the original poster and I don't think my question has been answered; let's see if someone can answer the question in the last sentence: My culture is that I've read about many accidents over the years with private pilots taking passengers. Solo flights under the supervision of a cfi are one thing but this is carrying another soul onboard that might not understand the lack of expeience a private pilot really has. The Pathfinder program for Robinson helicopters requires 100 hours and factory school before they allow this. I've never allowed it because I've read in the newspaper about a competing school at my airport allow a solo student to take a helicopter for a solo flight that ended in a jailbreak and crash. Also because I've read about a private pilot at that same (defunct) school take a passenger to smash and kill themselves on the road to the airport. These both were from the airport where my service center is at. I might add that at the neighboring airport two police CFI's smashed that helicopter practicing autos. I know I miss out on revenue from these private pilots that want to rent but I think they are better off (and a LOT safer) flying with a cfi working on advanced manuevers. Now, you might say that I'm self serving because I want them to go out and take boat pictures (I do), but they are in the care an control of a CFI and learning with each tankful. I think the safety numbers fall in my favor, and I wish to protect lives and equipment. Anyone have an data to back up either side?

Tom McDermott, manager
HelicopterAcademy.com/BOATPIX


#59 500E

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:46

I am sure that the No. of safe flights by low time pilots with PAX far outweigh the No. of smoking holes left by low time pilots with PAX by a factor of 1000s.
There will always be the " watch me" brigade, however you try & weed them out, had one last week towering take off to 200ft+ with 4 up, student at controls, People & buildings below.
There are also people who have no fear, "steer clear"
The majority want to live to a ripe old age, & bore their grand children with "when I flew Helicopters".
Me I am relatively low hours & old, & having no wish to kill myself or friends, I hope to fly in a safe manner, But I expect you would not rent to me.

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#60 clay

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 08:26

ALOT safer boatpix?

Like these guys?

http://www.justnews....794/detail.html

this was another successful safe flight:

http://aircrashed.co...FW08LA140.shtml
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