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List of civilian hiring units?


BigBird7

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  • 1 month later...

Sarasota County Sheriff's Office currently has a pilot job posted. 1000TT Helicopters and 500 Turbine. It says LE certification is a plus. Sounds like that's a civilian gig.

 

Also, Florida Fish and Wildlife just had a couple pilot job announcements that were open to civilians. You would have to go to an academy though after being hired as those are sworn positions.

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  • 3 months later...

Nashville PD hires civilian pilots. The requirements are 1000hrs TT with 500 turbine, and experience preferred in MD500 or OH-58. I am one of their civilian pilots, and work alongside the sworn guys just fine. I was worried there would be a "barrier" between the two groups, but havent experienced one so far.

 

This is great news to hear. I am about to try and start flight school and hoping that within in the nxt couple of years can build up to the 1000/500 time. Living in Nashville is always a dream of mine.

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  • 1 month later...

Minimums are just that..... Minimums. Just because you meet them doesn't really mean anything. You'll find most civilian LE pilot jobs have the ability to reach very qualified applicants. I see your an osprey pilot? When you get out how much helicopter time will you have? I only ask because I'm not sure what an osprey pilot logs? Most LE agencies, when they hire a pilot from the outside are doing so because they want someone who can step in and hit it with little to no cost or effort on the agency. No different than a civilian employer not wanting to dump money into training a pilot. Believe it or not, I have actually heard an agency that was asking about "tail rotor time" to address pilots who were Ch47/46 or V22 pilots. So there is another column for your logbook:)

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  • 3 weeks later...

1100 V22

1000 CH46

1100 TH57(B206)

 

I won't have flown a real helo in awhile when I get out, but other than the collective going the wrong way and getting impatient about travelling slowly, I think I'll be fine! I've just got to convince a hiring manager!

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I was going to ask, but think I just figured it out, FTDA = Full TouchDown Autorotation?

 

We have too many acronyms in this industry and I swear 3/4 of them are made up on this forum alone. (not saying this one was though) (maybe the settling with power one I saw the other day).

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  • 2 months later...

Aside from our part-time, contracted, civilian chief pilot who conducts our bi-annual reviews and some training, our large Sheriff department in Michigan only hires from the Deputy ranks. We currently have 2 full-time pilots and 2 tactical flight officers who are also licensed pilots (my partner has a private fixed-wing, and I have a private fixed-wing with rotorcraft add-on.) Our current budget only allows for one shift, although we have run two shifts in the past. We currently do not hire civilians, but there is another option.

 

If you are a qualified, motivated helicopter pilot, especially former military, you are welcomed to interview for a Deputy position, work in the jail, test and promote to Deputy Supervisor, wait for a road patrol spot, go to the police academy (if you didn't do so before hiring in), gain a few years of some valuable police experience, and then request for an aviation spot. By the time you get here, you should have gained enough experience and respect to be welcomed among us fellow LE aviators. Sorry, but that's how we roll here. I do understand why many departments would hire from the outside (i.e. training and insurance costs), but I think I would have a difficult time trying to work with someone who doesn't speak my LE language. Plus, after 14 years of spotless service, the department has a good idea of my employee track record. For those in the know, a LE career can be extremely taxing on all fronts (friends and family, emotional, physical, etc,) and not for everyone. Only a handful of people who hired in with me remain employed, and some still can't get "out of jail" so to speak. Just my $0.02 on this topic, but one that comes up in our LE conversation as well.

 

Thoughts?

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Aside from our part-time, contracted, civilian chief pilot who conducts our bi-annual reviews and some training, our large Sheriff department in Michigan only hires from the Deputy ranks. We currently have 2 full-time pilots and 2 tactical flight officers who are also licensed pilots (my partner has a private fixed-wing, and I have a private fixed-wing with rotorcraft add-on.) Our current budget only allows for one shift, although we have run two shifts in the past. We currently do not hire civilians, but there is another option.

 

If you are a qualified, motivated helicopter pilot, especially former military, you are welcomed to interview for a Deputy position, work in the jail, test and promote to Deputy Supervisor, wait for a road patrol spot, go to the police academy (if you didn't do so before hiring in), gain a few years of some valuable police experience, and then request for an aviation spot. By the time you get here, you should have gained enough experience and respect to be welcomed among us fellow LE aviators. Sorry, but that's how we roll here. I do understand why many departments would hire from the outside (i.e. training and insurance costs), but I think I would have a difficult time trying to work with someone who doesn't speak my LE language. Plus, after 14 years of spotless service, the department has a good idea of my employee track record. For those in the know, a LE career can be extremely taxing on all fronts (friends and family, emotional, physical, etc,) and not for everyone. Only a handful of people who hired in with me remain employed, and some still can't get "out of jail" so to speak. Just my $0.02 on this topic, but one that comes up in our LE conversation as well.

 

Thoughts?

 

Only if I had a dime for every civilian vs. sworn PIC debate I’ve entered…...

 

When agencies say “this is how we do it” or, “this is what works for us”, usually indicates the particular agency is cemented in “in the box” policies/practices and will likely fight to stay that way even to the demise of the unit when budgets are cut…… This is a detrimental internal philosophy and it’s happened before and will unfortunately happen again…

 

With that, this philosophical stagnation is quickly becoming ripe for commercial operators to invade the sector and provide a turn-key air support operation with equipped machines, pilots and maintenance at a lesser cost to the taxpayer. After that, the department will only need to provide the TFO. And, even then, the commercial operator will provide the necessary training for the TFO. Why and how? Because the helicopter industry, which ironically is seen as a lesser entity by the ALE sector, will supply highly the experienced personnel in the form of retired LE aviators who will provide the training and add a level of legitimacy beyond the Deputy wannabe aviator who is only planning for a secondary career to enhance his own retirement… Simply put, the cat is out of the bag as retired LE aviators are migrating into the commercial sector and with that, agencies now KNOW, or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, alternatives are available to provide a higher level of service to those we serve and that service can be provided at a reduced expense to the taxpayer just by the virtue of eliminating the politics….

 

Mind you, this is not meant to argue the point, debate or disagree because we’ll do that all day long. However, it should be understood, the helicopter industry as a whole is changing. To believe the LE sector is immune is called denial…. Nowadays, cameras are everywhere and everyone is watching. Former LE helicopter pilots and commercial pilots (who despise us) may be sitting on the other side of the courtroom when things “gone bad” and will no doubt interpret your decisions even before you make them and, way before you see them on YouTube……

Edited by Spike
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Let me start off by saying thanks for the wealth of information that is posted on these forums. I have been lurking around for a while and it's awesome to have a community of people with the base of knowledge that's represented here.

 

Just to throw another perspective into this debate. I know units who do it both ways, hire civilians, train patrol officers, or a combination of both. The dept I work for has sworn and civilian spots in our air unit. I am an officer with a few years under my belt. Worked extra jobs and paid for my own flight training and obtained my private rotocraft license. I'm waiting on a spot to open up in our unit so I can move over. I know from working with our current pilots, the ones who came out of patrol are much better LE pilots. They speak the language, understand perimeters, 10 codes etc. Also, the patrol guys tend to stay in these spots for years while the civilians tend to leave after building that precious turbine time. I'm not knocking the military / civilian guys because they bring a lot to the table as well. The guys who started out in the academy, earned there spot, paid there dues, I think end up as a better fit. Just my 2 cents.

 

I don't disagree with everything you are saying spike. However, I know most LE aviation units run on shoestring budgets. I am not sure they could be run by the commercial sector and still provide the same services. That is why civilian pilots leave there LE jobs after building time and realizing they can go to the commercial sector and make 100k a year vs. the 50k that they make in LE. But hey, I'm new to this and maybe i'm missing something.

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I have been employed as a sworn & non-sworn police pilot so I see advantages on both sides. Based on the ALEA Database, only approximately 10% of Airborne Law Enforcement Operators hire non-sworn pilots and I would bet most of that 10% hire retired LE. There is more to this than just being part of "the boys club". The sworn pilots will always have a better understanding of both seats which leads to better crew resourse management. The sworn pilots tend to stay in the unit longer and will always have a better understanding of police politics.

 

The non-sworn pilot is normally a better choice for smaller departments that can't invest in pilot training. It's also a must for operators who fly larger aircraft or missions that require more experienced pilots.

 

I do see the pendulum swinging towards hiring more non-sworn pilots, but I don't see large savings like Spike talks about. The expense for sworn pilots are in the initial flight training. The position is so competitive that some departments can require applicants have at least a private fixed-wing license and most of the training can be done by in-house CFIs for additional savings. All the other operational expenses should be no different than what it would cost a commercial operator unless the unit is poorly run.

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This argument is like saying you have to be a lineman in order to be able to fly utility. Would a lineman turned pilot have some great knowledge that would make him an asset, make him accepted into the group? Talk the talk? Of course. Does it have anything to do with the mechanics of flying the helicopter? No. Does a utility pilot, over a short amount of time, learn A LOT about the power line industry? Yes. If you go back through my progression of my current mindset, you will see that I started out 100%….no, 110% that in order to be an LE pilot, you MUST have been a cop. Now over a period of years, exposure and maturity as a professional pilot I have come to where I am now. And that is that its the pilot you hire and what they bring to the table. I am now in a position where I do fire fighting operations. Guess what… .Im not a fireman. But I know what they are talking about, I know what a head, flank, spot over and a heel are. I know how to talk in their funny fireman language, but none of that has anything to do with dropping going into a water source downwind and trying to lift 300 gallons of water with a tail wind and knowing why that is a REALLY bad idea. That was never covered in any of my fire courses.

 

Having been a sworn and non-sworn pilot myself too…. it all depends on the type of pilot you hire. Saying that a sworn officer makes a better pilot because they understand the language, know what the guys on the ground need, etc….. It seems people have the position of pilot confused with the position of TFO.

The pilot needs to know how to fly the helicopter. The TFO needs to know the culture of the department and how to relate to the patrol officers. If your agency is flying MD500's and has a SAR/Long Line/Off-site aspect to its mission, don't go hiring a career Hawaiian tour pilot. Hire a utility pilot with 10,000hrs in 500s. (If he will take the pay cut :D ) If your mission is strictly city patrol in a B2, then hire a pilot with loads of applicable B2 experience. If your unit has NVGs, mountains, etc etc…. In a short amount of time, if you hire the right pilot, he will understand whats going on. Most helicopter pilots make their living helping other industries do their job better. So they understand the need to get in and learn the overall picture.

Every agency has the program that works for them. This debate will never end because there is no answer. Each answer is agency specific. I know a couple programs intimately from the inside that hire civilian pilots and partner them with an experienced sworn TFO. As a cop on the ground getting support it doesn't matter. There is no "police way" of flying a helicopter. Although 2 departments I know of specifically say the reason they do not hire civilians is because their specific agency flies the helicopters "their way" and if you were not trained to fly that way, you cant work there.

 

Its much better, and gains you more traction when you just say "Hey…. just like the military, you have to be part of the team to get a spot." People understand that. When LE pilots go off on these descriptions of how being a cop somehow makes the helicopter operate differently and therefore, you have to spend 15 years as a cop before you could even think about being able to fly my agencies Jet Ranger…… people just roll their eyes.

 

This was pretty evident when I started going to different units, flying with them to see how they operate, watching the pilot and TFO interaction and then being dumbfounded when I find out the pilot is a civilian or find out the 2 pilot crew is sworn only because the agency hired them as pilots and sent them to the academy :o Or in another unit, the civilian was a Reserve so that while he was on duty, he could carry a gun and badge and make arrests…. but had never actually "worked the street".

 

And then you have units, like where I started, that pilots work their way into the pilot seat through the regular special assignment sworn routes. Those are the ones (I am/was in that group) who say "No, in order to fly like us, you have to have been a street cop." What they mean is that you are going to earn your spot and pay your dues just like I had to.

 

And thats OK too if it works. Im just at the point now in my career where I can recognize the reasons.

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I think its more of an investment in the employee. Job security should something happen to the unit. Most still need to go through an FTO or modified FTO. And unless CA is different than other states…. your academy training is just step 1. Sworn LE pilots still have to maintain their continuing education. I know several pilots who were hired and then put through an academy. The big issue I see in LE aviation is that we fly in a vacuum. Not many have actually flown outside of law enforcement so it can be hard to look at the sworn vs civilian argument objectively from either position.

 

As a TFO, if I tell an experienced MD500 pilot to "spin me over the top of this house so I can see down in the trash can" Is that a technique that only cops known how to do? Again…. nothing wrong with an agency training its own pilots or requiring them to go to an academy. My view has just evolved to "find the right pilot". If a specific agency wants to spend a couple years and 1000+hrs making their guy that pilot…. thats up to the command staff of that agency. Its funny how we all go to recurrence training at schools where the instructors aren't cops (ie. Western Helicopters) we do our basic ratings at local flight schools, we work side by side with companies like PJ Helicopters, coordinate rescue calls with local EMS Pilots, we move out of the way for the big 205 to come thumping through for water drop, National Guard Pave Hawks hoist our detectives into MJ grows…. I personally learned long lining from a utility pilot, mountain flying course was done by a non-LE pilot….. But work a patrol call? Wheeeeew…. I guess that can be tricky. Where I came from, the TFO controls the mission. The pilot puts the helicopter in the best position to make that happen safely.

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I think it really depends on the mission and the nature of the organization.

 

My agency doesnt have dedicated observers, so it really is a benefit for the pilot to have street experience. Protecting an undercover from an ambush, recognizing counter-surveillance, and sometimes, saving the observer when he/she loses the eye momentarily (those damn silver Camry's and Accords!) are all situations where having a streetwise pilot can save the day.

 

Spikes comment about small departments contracting with a private company for "turn key" air support does make a lot of sense. Retired LE as pilots and observers, streamlined logistics, and cost savings to the agency are just a few advantages over a dept trying to operate their own in house airwing.

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I agree. I am in that position currently. I do a lot of single pilot operations. The agency cant spare the bodies off the street to fly. So in that case yes, the pilot does need to have solid LE experience.

 

Ill go a step farther with the unit I came from. It was very important for both people in the helicopter to be cops…..and have street experience. It was daily routine to land and handle calls in remote areas. In that case, there were many times where we landed, and now we were two experienced cops handling a domestic, a disturbance, etc out in the middle of nowhere. In that case, the helicopter was just how we got there. The scene now called for two deputies who had been around the block. Its like being a paratrooper. Once your feet hit the ground…. nobody cares how you got there.

 

But a lot of agencies who profess that the pilot must be an experienced street cop do not have an off-site mission. I know a couple agencies who follow that mindset who actually have a policy against landing off-site except for mechanical emergencies. In that case…. why are you flying a helicopter? But thats a whole 'nuther discussion :P

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Agencies that pride themselves on the “sworn” side of the conversation are simply protecting their jobs for which they vigorously fought for… I understand that and have no issue with it. However, to say one (type) of pilot is a better choice over another just-because is pure nonsense…..

 

The reality is; if you are a LE pilot, you do exactly what I do. And that is, operate the helicopter. Furthermore, what I’ve done in the past, I’ve done in many forms and fashions meaning; different types of operations (missions) and for me, it’s all basically the same and that is, fly the helicopter safely while accomplishing the task.. Specifically, in this instance, it’s the job of the pilot to position the TFO so he can do his job. That’s it. If the pilot inserts himself into the call, he is no longer 100% pilot. He becomes 80% pilot and 20% TFO, so-to-speak and, visa-versa. This creates an unbalanced cockpit where everyone is responsible while no one is responsible all at the same time…. Death always comes from outside….

 

Cockpit Resource Management methodology exists to enhance flight safety and to reduce pilot workload. CRM does not exist to catch John Q. Criminal. Catching John Q. is a byproduct of proper crew coordination. Proper crew coordination is accomplished by the pilot focusing 100% of his attention on flying the machine. This creates an enviornment so the TFO can trust in the fact that flight safety is not being compromised enabling the TFO to focus 100% of his attention on the task at hand and that is, bagging John Q… Likewise, fighting fire is about positioning the machine to drop the water. ENG is about positioning the machine so the camera operator can get the shot. Power line work is about positioning the machine so the lineman can do his work. As soon as the pilot inserts himself into the peripheral task, the risk exposure skyrockets. I call this, “willful induced distraction” and will be identified as a link in the accident chain....

 

In the end, I have no illusion that most any LE pilot could come to my agency, jump into our machine and do the job with little to-no guidance as I could with their agency, –right? To believe I’d need to start as a junior Officer and further build street experience is not only bunk, its expensive and risky… And, I agree, if you are expected to conduct direct action landings, the-more-the-merrier (although, if you hook-em, how will forthwith come into play and if you tell me you transport the dirt-bag in the machine…… OMG….. ).

 

Again, I’m not trying to argue or disagree. It’s a fun topic and I fully understand I’m in the minority whose views tend to go against the grain….

 

Lastly, why is it when LE aviators retire, they ALWAYS pursue aviation related jobs and not LE related jobs?

Edited by Spike
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  • 5 months later...

So what's your feeling on a commercial pilot going to a police department, going through the academy then working on the street for a few years to go back to flying.......wouldn't they be a bit rusty after flying? Or even better departments that require a private and will train an officer to commercial standards.......is it really safe to have a 200hr pilot running LE missions?

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Yes, it is pretty safe. Do you hear many stories of low time LE pilots crashing?

There is no such thing as a standard LE mission. Some agencies require a high degree of pilot experience because of the missions they perform. Others turn circles at sea level. People always talk about how unsafe it is, yet the LE accident rate is extremely low.

 

In a perfect world, experienced pilots would decide to become cops, and after a couple years on the street would go to aviation. But the problem is, it doesn't work like that. You don't go to aviation because you are a pilot. In LE Aviation you have to wait until there is an opening. And that could take years. And in most cases you wont start out as a pilot. You are being selected as a flight officer first based off of your patrol experience. Then the unit chooses future pilots from the TFOs. So by the time you become a pilot, you are pretty well experienced in the LE mission. You arent learning to fly AND learning the LE mission at the same time. In the helicopter the TFO and the pilot have two distinct roles that really should not cross over much.

 

There are plenty of models used by agencies across the country. And believe it or not, they all seem to work. Don't confuse that with the fact that there are LE agencies who have no business having air units. LE aviation is just like the civilian sector. There are companies you stay away from and there are companies that set the standard.

 

People like to point out "Is it safe to have a 200hr pilot running LE missions?" Chances are most LE pilots will have far more than 200hrs when they are cut loose on a shift as PIC. Heck... At 450hrs TT I was in an MD500 long lining weed out of canyon at 5500ft. I did an entire CAMP season with less than 600hrs. But all of my training had been geared towards those types of missions. The other 3 pilots in the unit all started out like I did. The one big thing with LE pilots is that if they do start out as low time, they tend to build time and experience quickly. I was flying 5-7hrs a day. 1000hrs is a 1000hrs and Id rather get it in 2yrs not 10. Its all about what you are doing in those 1000hrs. I can name you 50 pilots who all started out as non-rated observers who are now 10,000+ hr LE pilots, most of whom have transitioned out into the civilian sector. So does the model work? Yes, it does. It may not "work" for people who are on the outside looking in, but it does work. Does an LE pilot need to be an experienced cop? If I had to give a definitive Yes or No, I would say No. Would it be nice if they were at least cops? Yes. because there is authority and protections that go along with being a sworn officer in regards to legal coverage and even death benefits that most civilian pilots are not included in. But many agencies have pilot who come right off the street as high time pilots and hit the ground running. Chances are, when you see an agency hiring civilian pilots or outside pilots vs training their own, its because they perform missions that require a higher level of skill. I was just lucky that the agency I started with had a training program that was pretty focused and you were cleared to do missions as your skill level increased. Most agencies don't operate like that.

 

LE aviation can be pretty misunderstood. Ive been asked a number of times if I plan on ever getting my FAA ratings. And when I respond "Huh?" I get back "well you don't have a pilots license do you? Because you fly public use?" I did tell a guy once that I taught myself to fly a 500E with the POH in my lap and he went on his way shaking his head :P We would get a number of low time CFIs who would come down to the hangar with their resumes offering their newly minted CFI and talking about how valuable they would be to the operation because they could help us work on our ratings. Funny considering 3 out of the 5 pilots were dual rated CFIs or CFII's already.

 

Nothing I enjoy more than reading the urban legends of people who claim to know LE pilots who don't have pilots licenses and who taught themselves how to fly on their own and who are exempt from all the FARs, or that LE pilots cant get jobs once they retire :D

Edited by Flying Pig
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Lastly, why is it when LE aviators retire, they ALWAYS pursue aviation related jobs and not LE related jobs?

Why wouldn't they? You aren't going to retire and then go become a cop again at another agency and start out at the bottom of the totem pole again. Unless you changed states, your retirement wouldn't let you. When cops retire, they usually either just stay retired or they go into the civilian sector with the specialty they learned as a cop. Investigations, Crash reconstruction, Dignitary Security....why would an LE pilot go work for Wells Fargo as an investigator when they could retire and go fly somewhere?

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