ferg Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 My company's SOPs permit maintenance techs to run up our two helos, with rotors turning, without a pilot. We are reviewing this policy. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on this issue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdminLB Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 We used to do it in our Agusta A109E Power's. The mechs were solid and did it for years. After doing a risk assesment, we could find no good reason why they should be doing it......especially at operating RPM. If there is a chance the aircraft can move or fly, there should be a pilot at the controls. We can trust our outstanding mechs all we want, but if something happens and there is not a pilot at the controls, do you think the insurance company is going to pay bill? This happened when a mech was doing a run up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoni Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 NO, only a pilot with the type rating or we don't have the insurance coverage Toni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferg Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 Wow! I hope no one was hurt in that. Thank you for that reply. Very informative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted August 15, 2012 Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 the bigger the company the more wasted money (pilots hanging around to do run-ups, risk assessments) and yes, I believe insurance would pay. Do what you feel comfortable with... I wouldn't trust some mechanics... but others no problem and depends on the equipment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My brother works for Sky West and they are trained to start and taxi the aircraft. He taxis the Embraers and CRJs from the maintenance hangar to the terminal ramp all the time. With proper training, run ups can be accomplished by mechs. I would not however just let anyone get in and do a run up even if they were "experienced". I would sit through it a few times with them to make sure they didn't do anything stupid first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My company's SOPs permit maintenance techs to run up our two helos, with rotors turning, without a pilot. We are reviewing this policy. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on this issue? I can't help you with any company SOP. I can however, tell you to look at how many NTSB reports there are of accidents that occurred while a helicopter was on the ground running. A gust of wind took out a 206 a few years ago in Tehachapi with a pilot on the controls shutting down after landing.....what would happen without the pilot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My company's SOPs permit maintenance techs to run up our two helos, with rotors turning, without a pilot. We are reviewing this policy. Does anyone have experience or thoughts on this issue? Proper training and procedures in place, it works fine. The 13 years I was in the Gulf of Mexico, the operators routinely did so. One wants to be selective about who, when and why the run-ups are happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) At 1 company in the gom, aircraft are tied down (to the ground) when the mechs run up. They're limited to 10 kts wind and they probably have have other wx limits (storms in vicinity) and are limited for which directions the winds are coming from. They also have to do a start with a pilot to maintain currency in each type every 6 months or year. Will conservative rules like that, I don't think there's any problem at all. It saves time. They can finish their mx at night so they don't have to wait for a pilot in the morning. It saves aircraft down time and/or having to pay a pilot to sit around and wait. Edited August 16, 2012 by rotormandan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pokey Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I purchased my current helicopter from insurance company, the mechanic had waited for the pilot to show up early in the morning for the run-up....The commercial pilot lost control of the helicopter and he blamed it on the mechanic being overweight & the cg was out of limits. No telling what can happen out there, rated or not. Was a fairly easy rebuild of the 300, and no-one was hurt,,, 'cept the pilot's ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 The cg limits are still the pilots resposibility. I assume it was more then a run up since cg shouldn't affect a helicopter idling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pokey Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 The cg limits are still the pilots resposibility. I assume it was more then a run up since cg shouldn't affect a helicopter idling. The cg was fine, i know the pilot and he is one of those "watch this!" types. Everytime i used to see him, i would introduce him as "this is (soNso) who without his help i would not have owned my 1st helicopter" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary-mike Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 A lot of different aspects to consider with insurance and rotor wing aircraft. I have been running fighter jets up to full power at times for years as a mechanic. The proposal of "bugging" a pilot to do our trouble-shooting and ops checks was considered just plain ridiculous. A pilots job is to fly the aircraft, a mechanics job is to maintain, trouble shoot, and ops check the aircraft. Again, it is a different world outside the military though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Well, from the military rotor wing side, we have test pilots who do MX runups and test flights. Mechs are not allowed to even motor the engines for a wash. It HAS to be a pilot. This is just the Army though, not sure how other branches do it with their helos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Life is a compromise. One has to balance the risk of damage against the time and inconvenience of waiting for a pilot to arrive. Some companies have duty time limits for maintenance personnel as well as pilots, and it can be difficult to find a time for both to be available. Missed customer flights may also be a problem. It's a matter deciding where on the risk scale you're comfortable. I know of several cases where aircraft were destroyed by mechanics during runups, but I also know of lots of cases where aircraft were destroyed by pilots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Most mechanics with half a brain, and I would like to think most of them have half a brain, will not get in and run an aircraft unless they have been properly trained on the do's and dont's, and basic operation of the machine. Our mechanic is a student pilot, soon to be rated (hopefully). I fully trust him to do run ups because I know he can fly the aircraft. Mechanics frequently get stick time with pilots while doing test flights and the like. I see no reason why someone capable of starting and flying the machine, even if not fully certified to do so, cannot do a simple ground run. Where things get hairy is when people either a) get pushed into doing something they are not trained or comfortable doing b )get overconfident and jump into something they are not trained or proficient doing. I can't count how many times I screwed up an Army aircraft as a young PFC because I was left unsupervised and told to accomplish something that I had no experience doing. Later, when I became a non-com I used that experience and always paired the inexperienced mechanics with an experienced one. Regarding maintenance in general, I offer the following advice to any one willing to listen. When it comes to the old time is money, and risk vs. gain arguments, remember this: There is never enough time to do it right, but there is always enough time to do it twice. This thought comes to my mind daily as we run in circles at my work because the leadership wants it all done RFN and fails, repeatedly, to realize that if they gave us a little more time to do it by the book the first time, we wouldn't be constantly wasting time fixing mistakes made because we were rushed. It costs us more time and money in the end. Always. If you have a choice between having an inexperienced mech do a run up or miss out on a revenue flight the next morning, consider how much revenue you will be losing if that inexperienced mech totals the helicopter because he or she didn't know what they were doing. Edited August 17, 2012 by nightsta1ker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary-mike Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 If you want to have maintainers do run ups (which does have great advantages IMHO). Is it a possibility to have a strict training plan and have the insurance buy off on coverage for it? Or would it be cheaper and easier to get them a minimal rating so they can run up as a PIC? One thing I do believe in is that, a pilot should have full confidence in the maintenance crew, if they don't, one needs to go! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBX11B Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well, from the military rotor wing side, we have test pilots who do MX runups and test flights. Mechs are not allowed to even motor the engines for a wash. It HAS to be a pilot. This is just the Army though, not sure how other branches do it with their helos. My experience in army aviation was otherwise, mechanics motored the engines for the engine douche, and some reserve ASF's allowed mechanics to do run ups after training and sign off by a MTP. I think this varies by unit and/or duty station assignment rather than army wide policy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 My experience in army aviation was otherwise, mechanics motored the engines for the engine douche, and some reserve ASF's allowed mechanics to do run ups after training and sign off bya MTP.I think this varies by unit and/or duty station assignment rather than army wide policy. You are probably right. We just always had a pilot in the seat. I remember hearing stories about how so and so blew a fire-bottle or the blades started turning during the wash and so mechanics were no longer allowed to motor the engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 In the Navy/Marine corps, there was a specific qualification for ground running aircraft by non pilots. It was called "turn qual". There was some extensive training, and a "checkride" by a senior maintenance pilot before the person in question could be signed off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 We used to do it in our Agusta A109E Power's. The mechs were solid and did it for years. After doing a risk assesment, we could find no good reason why they should be doing it......especially at operating RPM. If there is a chance the aircraft can move or fly, there should be a pilot at the controls. We can trust our outstanding mechs all we want, but if something happens and there is not a pilot at the controls, do you think the insurance company is going to pay bill? This happened when a mech was doing a run up. There is a lot more to this one than "a mech doing a run-up". I cant go into details but dont make that conclusion from this one. With a 500 you can pull the collective into your arm pit at ground idle and it wont move. That rollover on Tahachapi was a K-max not a 206 WPR09LA057. He had a strong quatering tailwind. K-Max have limits on that because of their top-heavy design and tricycle landing gear. THe NTSB determined that he exceeded those limits. Again, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that. A properly trained mech and individually qualified mechs should be able to run up aircraft. That being said, there is no need to do it in companies that have pilots on staff in the hours where the helicopters are being worked on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 i know its not maintenance tech related but thought you might like this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ4e0BdUy_Q&feature=related no wonder there's so many laws and regs now lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 And now for something completely different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 My brother works for Sky West and they are trained to start and taxi the aircraft. He taxis the Embraers and CRJs from the maintenance hangar to the terminal ramp all the time. With proper training, run ups can be accomplished by mechs. I would not however just let anyone get in and do a run up even if they were "experienced". I would sit through it a few times with them to make sure they didn't do anything stupid first. In fixed wing, doing ground runs and taxiing aircraft by mechanics is standard, and expected. No mechanic should do so without being trained. Rotor wing is different. I know a lot of pilot/mechanics, however and most places I've worked, there's no dividing line. Pilots are expected to have mechanic certification and to turn wrenches. I always have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsta1ker Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 In fixed wing, doing ground runs and taxiing aircraft by mechanics is standard, and expected. No mechanic should do so without being trained. Rotor wing is different. I know a lot of pilot/mechanics, however and most places I've worked, there's no dividing line. Pilots are expected to have mechanic certification and to turn wrenches. I always have. You say no mechanic should do so without being trained, then go on to say that rotorwing is different. How so? I know a lot of pilot mechanics also. Both fixed and rotary. So what? I still think that with proper training a non pilot can safely operate a helicopter on the ground. It only takes a few hours to teach a new student. What would make it hard to teach a mechanic? If you are against this idea because you want to remain a marketable commodity as a pilot/mechanic, than I can sympathize, but don't muddy the facts with your opinion unless you really feel that one must be licensed to do a ground run in order for it to be safe. Student pilots do it all the time. If a new student of mine can't start the aircraft and run it up by themselves after lesson 3, I feel like I'm doing a poor job. Take the time to train your mechanics, and thing like the photo above won't happen as often. Let's not forget that pilots bend more birds than mechanics do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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