Flying Pig Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Has there been anything created, or anything anyone uses as an elbow support in the 500 when your long lining? I like to lean pretty far out, and having something like an elbow rest would be nice. A while back I saw a guy with what looked like a sling that mounted on the front door pin and then back to the handle right behind the pilot door. It looked like a wide cloth strap that he just laid his arm in and he was able to still access the collective with no problem. Maybe I just need to hit the gym or something, but after a few hours I feel like Ive been working out the right side of my body from holding myself in position. Or maybe my technique just stinks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagMan Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Come up with a design, send it in to the FAA, and get an STC for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 I thought I saw something like you are talking about on an episode of Heliloggers. Maybe you could contact the broadcast network, and they could put you in touch with a good lead ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Come up with a design, send it in to the FAA, and get an STC for it. It is my understanding that as long as it i not attached to the airframe is a permanent type manner, an STC is not required. None of the GPS mounts that use a suction cup or the like are STC'ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iChris Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) It is my understanding that as long as it i not attached to the airframe is a permanent type manner, an STC is not required. None of the GPS mounts that use a suction cup or the like are STC'ed. Correct.... Simple items that are removable may not require an STC. An STC is required when a “major change” in type design is made. Changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are “major changes. You should also ensure the installed item is not considered “major alteration” under appendix A to part 43. 21.113- If a person does not hold the TC for a product and alters that product by introducing a “major change” in type design that does not require an application for a new TC under §21.19, that person must apply to the appropriate aircraft certification office for an STC. 21.95 - Minor changes in a type design may be approved under a method acceptable to the FAA before submitting to the FAA any substantiating or descriptive data. Edited September 9, 2012 by iChris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Yeah, I know what STCs are. I was looking for something more for..... OH, this coming Monday at 7am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Just take a jock strap and string it across the door then put your elbow in the business part. Preferably a clean one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Budget cuts man..... clean is a detail I cant be concerned about! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iChris Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Has there been anything created, or anything anyone uses as an elbow support in the 500 when your long lining? I like to lean pretty far out, and having something like an elbow rest would be nice. A while back I saw a guy with what looked like a sling that mounted on the front door pin and then back to the handle right behind the pilot door. It looked like a wide cloth strap that he just laid his arm in and he was able to still access the collective with no problem. Maybe I just need to hit the gym or something, but after a few hours I feel like Ive been working out the right side of my body from holding myself in position. Or maybe my technique just stinks? I’ve seen these homemade “Body Sling Straps” use in helicopters like the left seat PIC AS350, were you’re far more inboard of the doors edge. There’re arm supports available for the AS350, Bell 212, 205, etc. Also setups for the S-61, and S-64 we used in logging. The MD500 is one of the easiest ships to longline from. You’re right at the doors edge, the ship hangs left skid low, and the egg shape fuselage tapers down under the left seat, that’s maybe why you haven’t seen anything on the market. I think you’ll find in the long run such an armrest on the 500 would be in the way. Most pilots, as you can see in the photo, press their back left shoulder blade into the area between the seat back and the doors edge for support. This allows the left arm to move freely as it controls the collective. If their height is 5’ 11” are more, some even tuck the left elbow inside, between the doorframe and the seat back. This allows more upper body support. In addition the shoulder harness, if used, also provides body support. Sometimes seatback cushions are too thick and push your body to far forward placing you in a poor lean-out position. Unless you have a short upper body length, there’s no reason in the MD500 to over-lean, beyond your ability to support your body. With a line of 75 feet or more you shouldn’t have any problems seeing the end of the line. The photo shows the normal amount of lean-out. You’ll also see some that remove the lower fairing from the left-front skid support. Some feel that lower fairing may block or restrict their visibility of the load. There are many techniques and gadgets out there. If you’re working the line day after day you’ll develop your own technique for comfort. However, if you’re only working the line hard for a few hours every few months, it’s harder to find that comfort level. Longline work sometimes looks easy, but it works both mind and body. Some I know still have back problems from years of logging. When you’re pulling heavy loads repeatedly, day-after-day, vibrations through the airframe pass through your seat and into your bent-over lower back and curved spine and cause problems years after. You’re right, if you plan to stay in utility after 30 years old, you should have some type of regular exercise program going. Edited September 3, 2012 by iChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted September 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 I tuck my arm inside next to the seat and slide my butt as far to the right as I can comfortably. We have the mesh seats so I sit probably a little farther back. Trying to put my elbow out puts my shoulder and back up agains the door frame. That can get uncomfortable real quick. We use a 100' line. Mostly because of the trees I have to get the hook down through, and they always end up being in canyons. So its nice to be a little higher. Plus with the 100' line the guys on the ground seem to like us a little higher. Even with the 100' there always seems to be a tree branch in my face!! Removing the faring does help a lot. A couple times Ive looked for the load and discovered it was hiding behind the faring. But your right, the 500 was built for long line! Its fairly comfortable. So far my longest stint was about 4hrs straight with hot fueling and jumping out to pee. I know guys do it way longer than that for a living day after day. If those guys havnt thought of anything, then its probably not worth the hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Correct.... Simple items that are removable may not require an STC. An STC is required when a “major change” in type design is made. Changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are “major changes. You should also ensure the installed item is not considered “major alteration” under appendix A to part 43. 21.113- If a person does not hold the TC for a product and alters that product by introducing a “major change” in type design that does not require an application for a new TC under §21.19, that person must apply to the appropriate aircraft certification office for an STC. 21.95 - Minor changes in a type design may be approved under a method acceptable to the FAA before submitting to the FAA any substantiating or descriptive data. Correct, All to often I hear Simple items that are removable do not require an STC... And that is wrong.It still has to meet the definition below... A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. I think in thise case It would not if it just clipped onto the door pins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Yes there are elbow supports. We have them in some of our aircraft! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted September 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Can I PM you my email and get some photos of one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjibbs Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I’ve seen these homemade “Body Sling Straps” use in helicopters like the left seat PIC AS350, were you’re far more inboard of the doors edge. There’re arm supports available for the AS350, Bell 212, 205, etc. Also setups for the S-61, and S-64 we used in logging. The MD500 is one of the easiest ships to longline from. You’re right at the doors edge, the ship hangs left skid low, and the egg shape fuselage tapers down under the left seat, that’s maybe why you haven’t seen anything on the market. I think you’ll find in the long run such an armrest on the 500 would be in the way. Most pilots, as you can see in the photo, press their back left shoulder blade into the area between the seat back and the doors edge for support. This allows the left arm to move freely as it controls the collective. If their height is 5’ 11” are more, some even tuck the left elbow inside, between the doorframe and the seat back. This allows more upper body support. In addition the shoulder harness, if used, also provides body support. Sometimes seatback cushions are too thick and push your body to far forward placing you in a poor lean-out position. Unless you have a short upper body length, there’s no reason in the MD500 to over-lean, beyond your ability to support your body. With a line of 75 feet or more you shouldn’t have any problems seeing the end of the line. The photo shows the normal amount of lean-out. You’ll also see some that remove the lower fairing from the left-front skid support. Some feel that lower fairing may block or restrict their visibility of the load. There are many techniques and gadgets out there. If you’re working the line day after day you’ll develop your own technique for comfort. However, if you’re only working the line hard for a few hours every few months, it’s harder to find that comfort level. Longline work sometimes looks easy, but it works both mind and body. Some I know still have back problems from years of logging. When you’re pulling heavy loads repeatedly, day-after-day, vibrations through the airframe pass through your seat and into your bent-over lower back and curved spine and cause problems years after. You’re right, if you plan to stay in utility after 30 years old, you should have some type of regular exercise program going. Go Jeremy!! He's doing some serious tree topping here in the Yukon!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) I'm not a fan of the elbow outside. You have to lean out further and put more strain on your back to see down. Edited November 18, 2012 by Trans Lift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted November 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Yeah I dont like it either. My elbow fits nicely in the little pocket between the seat and the door. I feel more solid in my seat with my elbow up against my ribs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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