how many cfi's without jobs?

[helicoptered]

I am about too complete my instrument rating , and I am trying to decide whether to continue it as a profession. I am just worried that if I invest lots of money and my local school does not hire me, it would all be wasted?

[nightsta1ker]

Let me put it this way, your success depends on your ingenuity and tenacity. That is all. It's not a roll of the dice like a lot of people seem to think. The guys and gals I see getting jobs are the ones that maintain a good attitude an go out and GET them. Individuals who don't get hired by their flight school and assume they don't have a chance anywhere else just shot themselves in the foot.

 

Nothing worthwhile is easy. If you want to do this as a career badly enough, you can find a way to make it happen. If you feel it will be too much of a stretch, save yourself some time, money, and frustration.

[AgMan]

Nightsta1ker speaks wisely. The odds are stacked against you from the start. You have a 20-30% chance of getting hired by your flight school when you are done. If they don't hire you, then the odds probably drop an order of magnitude for getting hired as a CFI by another school.

 

That being said, it can be done ... I did it, sort of. I brought my own students into a school. Unfortunately, I only managed to bring in 3 and only managed to fly about 300 hours total from those three. Then I got into an ag company as ground crew (tag along, no pay) for a season, and then started flying ag. Until I started the ag flying, I averaged 2000 per year income as a CFI. That is three years and about 100 hours per year flying. I still only get about 100 hours flying ag (I am just the fill in pilot), but now I make 30000 for the season. I am hoping to get a full time job next year, but my hours are still pretty low, so I may be the fill in guy for a couple more seasons.

 

If you are about to finish your instrument, you are 90% of the way there. The bulk of the investment has already been made. Whether that was wasted is entirely up to you.

 

You have to want it. You have to love to fly. If you are in it for the money, that won't happen. I make enough to survive now, but it has not been easy, and I don't know if/when it will get easy. If I had it all to do over again, I would still do it because I love to fly.

[DieselBoy]

NightStalker is correct. Starting a career in this industry is solely dependent on the student. The "interview" starts when they're a student. If they want to get hired at their school then a good attitude and work ethic is essential! Everything that a student needs to know is on these forums, but it's up to them to search for it or ask questions. If they don't have that drive in them to go above and beyond, they will never accomplish what they want....

 

Like most people here, I spent a lot of money on flight training and I'd be damned if I was just going to throw that away!!

[eagle5]

Your fears are certainly justified, after all, its not like there is a "need" for more flight instuctors! Just make sure you have a good paying job to keep yourself alive while you try to squeeze your way into this overcrowded clown car!

[Carpenter]

Helicoptered, you face the same TOUGH decisions that we all faced at one time or another. Are you paying cash as you go, or are you going deeply into debt? (please don't go deeply into debt!) Are you wanting a career that pays an adult wage? (this industry won't allow that, at least for the first 10+ years'ish). Are you young or old? (relative I know.) What is your flight weight? If you are 160 or less, then you have a GREAT chance of being hired as an instructor; If you are 190 or more, then you have a significantly reduced chance of being hired. Without knowing more about you, I would like to at least ask you to take a long hard look in the mirror about asking the Right questions in order to get the Right answers so that you can make an informed and intelligent decision; Agman said it right and this you can take to the bank, "you cannot get into this business with the sole intent to make money! You have to want to fly for the LOVE of flying! If this is your intentions, then you can do fine.

Good luck and take care.

[aeroscout]

Your fears are certainly justified, after all, its not like there is a "need" for more flight instuctors! Just make sure you have a good paying job to keep yourself alive while you try to squeeze your way into this overcrowded clown car!

 

There are a few clowns, just enough to give the industry a bad image. You seem from what I have seen to give the industry an improved image. Keep up the good work.

[pilot#476398]

The question you have to ask yourself is; Do I HAVE to fly for a living, or could I be satisfied with just renting a helicopter once a month or so?

 

To be honest, if I had known just how difficult it was going to be to find a job, I would have stopped after my PPL, but that could just be because it took me a long time to find one, and then I lost it soon after when they went out of business.

 

If you're willing to devote your entire existence to flying a helicopter then you MIGHT make it, if not, then I'd say stop now.

[Boatpix]

You should look into the school I own because we have a photo contract that allows us to hire every CFI (because we do like three times as much photo as instruction) and have hired everyone. I'm also an advertiser on this site since 2001 or earlier. I prefer students that come to us that already have the private helicopter rating as they can just do our $200/hour timebuilding with a CFI and we both win. Perhaps you can call me at 561-346-2816 or check out www.R22.us or www.HelicopterAcademy.com We take pictures of boats when the temperature is above 70 degrees Fahrenheit on Saturdays and Sundays year round. It is still warm enough in most all areas for the tempeature to be above 70 degrees F for the next couple of weeks so look at my map and see where you are nearest to one of my R22's on fixed pontoon floats. I have an opening in Southern California this saturday and just filled seats in Chicago and the Cheasepeake Bay today by flying students from my free dormitory near Miami. My R44 at $375/hour is perpetually full so lets just concentrate on the R22's at $200/hour including fuel and instructor. Gotta have a ppl helicopter for these rates. I have offered all 20 of my cfi's free admission to Heli Success and you can talk to any of them in Las Vegas or by contacting them from the website which lists phones and emails. Tom McDermott, Manager, HelicopterAcademy and BOATPIX.

[Boatpix]

It might be useful if CFI's explained how a school lead them to believe they were going to be hired and how they then explained that they weren't going to be hired? My website lists our guarantee that you will be hired. Explain how your school mislead you?

[Spike]

I am about too complete my instrument rating , and I am trying to decide whether to continue it as a profession. I am just worried that if I invest lots of money and my local school does not hire me, it would all be wasted?

 

 

Not to be rude, but, it’s been said a thousand times before:

 

IF YOU HAVE TO *DECIDE*, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS.

 

I'm all about chasing your goals and fulfilling a dream, but rest assured, this business is not kind for those who waiver. Truthfully, you should have known this before you began your training. Therefore, consider yourself ill-informed about this business and if you choose to continue, do a lot more research and this would include switching schools.

 

[500E]

Have a friend who is looking for a 300 CFI but based in Spain.if

any one interested email me & I will pass your details on.

Remember high DA experiance should help

[nightsta1ker]

Have a who is friend is looking for a 300 CFI but based in Spain.if

any one interested email me & I will pass your details on.

Remember high DA experiance should help

 

Not to be rude, but I think this post probably deserves its own thread as it is not at all relevant to this one.

[nightsta1ker]

 

 

 

Not to be rude, but, it’s been said a thousand times before:

 

IF YOU HAVE TO *DECIDE*, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS.

 

I'm all about chasing your goals and fulfilling a dream, but rest assured, this business is not kind for those who waiver. Truthfully, you should have known this before you began your training. Therefore, consider yourself ill-informed about this business and if you choose to continue, do a lot more research and this would include switching schools.

 

As usual, Spike has had his morning breakfast of piss-flavored wheaties.

 

If you have to make a decision, make it. Don't let some grumpy old pilot tell you that you will never be a commercial helicopter pilot just because you want to make an educated decision. Granted, if your school is misleading you, it's definitely time for a change. Just know that the going will be tough, the pay will be sub-standard, and you may find yourself unemployed for stretches of time, but if you persist, you can prevail. I'm happy I have a seat 2 days a week. It's better than not flying at all. I love it too much to quit. If you don't feel the same way, it's probably not worth the money.

[Spike]

 

 

As usual, Spike has had his morning breakfast of piss-flavored wheaties.

 

If you have to make a decision, make it. Don't let some grumpy old pilot tell you that you will never be a commercial helicopter pilot just because you want to make an educated decision. Granted, if your school is misleading you, it's definitely time for a change. Just know that the going will be tough, the pay will be sub-standard, and you may find yourself unemployed for stretches of time, but if you persist, you can prevail. I'm happy I have a seat 2 days a week. It's better than not flying at all. I love it too much to quit. If you don't feel the same way, it's probably not worth the money.

 

Grumpy and old eh? Maybe. However, for the purposes of this discussion, old and grumpy is far better than young and inexperienced....

 

The fact is, I didn't say anything about never becoming a commercial helicopter pilot. I said "succeed in this business". Please, stop misconstruing what is said. In any case, since you brought it up, can you give us an example of the successes you've archived in this business? How many jobs have you had? What type of operations have you flown? How many times have you signed your name in a student's logbook as a CFI? What was your highest annual gross income as a pilot? You also say "the going will be tough, the pay will be sub-standard, and you may find yourself unemployed for stretches of time, but if you persist, you can prevail." In your experience, can you tell me how tough it will be? What the pay will be? And, if unemployed how can you define that as prevailing? Furthermore, as a 2 day-a-week CFI, do you consider yourself as a pilot who has prevailed?

 

To clarify to the OP. You shouldn't be nearing the end of your instrument training, then all of the sudden doubt your endeavor. To me, and based on *MY EXPERIENCE*, this is a red flag and, a reevaluation is in order. There are 'wrong' decisions and many have made them. Don't be that guy.

 

Furthermore, the internet will not provide you with the knowledge you seek to make an "informed decision". Talk to real working pilots, face-to-face.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Spike

[avbug]

You should look into the school I own because we have a photo contract that allows us to hire every CFI (because we do like three times as much photo as instruction) and have hired everyone.

 

Still selling jobs?

[nightsta1ker]

Grumpy and old eh? Maybe. However, for the purposes of this discussion, old and grumpy is far better than young and inexperienced....

 

The fact is, I didn't say anything about never becoming a commercial helicopter pilot. I said "succeed in this business". Please, stop misconstruing what is said. In any case, since you brought it up, can you give us an example of the successes you've archived in this business? How many jobs have you had? What type of operations have you flown? How many times have you signed your name in a student's logbook as a CFI? What was your highest annual gross income as a pilot? You also say "the going will be tough, the pay will be sub-standard, and you may find yourself unemployed for stretches of time, but if you persist, you can prevail." In your experience, can you tell me how tough it will be? What the pay will be? And, if unemployed how can you define that as prevailing? Furthermore, as a 2 day-a-week CFI, do you consider yourself as a pilot who has prevailed?

 

To clarify to the OP. You shouldn't be nearing the end of your instrument training, then all of the sudden doubt your endeavor. To me, and based on *MY EXPERIENCE*, this is a red flag and, a reevaluation is in order. There are 'wrong' decisions and many have made them. Don't be that guy.

 

Furthermore, the internet will not provide you with the knowledge you seek to make an "informed decision". Talk to real working pilots, face-to-face.

 

I do consider myself a pilot who has prevailed. Considering how many pilots I know without jobs. I agree that if you lack the motivation you won't get anywhere. I have a set of goals that I want to achieve. I cannot, at this time, achieve them as a full time instructor, so I teach on weekends until I reach my goals. At that time, I will take a full time position that I am confident will be there for me. It has been offered, but it would not work for me right at the moment. I am at the beginning of my career, and I have a long way to go, but I am working towards my goals and succeeding at my own pace. Something you seemed to imply is not likely. Sure, I'm not a 10,000 hour pilot with twin turbine time and a job history 3 pages long, but I am an employed pilot, even if only part time.

 

I was merely sniping at your inherent negativity. You always seem to be very quick in trying to talk people out of flying. I encourage people to be realistic, but I don't like telling people they can't do something.

 

You said: "IF YOU HAVE TO *DECIDE*, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS." Implying that the OP has already failed because he has not yet made a decision about whether or not he wants to continue. I had to make that decision at one point. It was a hard decision, and I decided that I had better be careful about how I go about doing it, which is why I am still part time rather than full time. I am making it work for me. I think the OP can too if he wants to. Quit being so negative. We are supposed to be helping people, not shattering dreams. Reality checks are OK, telling someone they don't have what it takes based off of a general inquiry is not.

[avbug]

We are supposed to be helping people, not shattering dreams.

 

Why?

 

We're supposed to be working for a living, doing a job. We're not obligated to hand-hold, succor, or entreat. This isn't altruistic. it's reality. Rubber meets the road.

 

The stuff you're looking for will be found in Richard Bach books and old Gordon Baxter articles.

[nightsta1ker]

Off we go again.

 

I stick with my original response to the OP. I am honestly shocked that individuals like MikeMV and RkyMtnHI would stand by what Spike is saying, not that I disagree with ALL of it Spike, just the sentence I quoted above. Mentors are not supposed to tell people they aren't cut out for something. You don't even know the guy or what his motivations for getting his ratings were. He's asking about the possibility of getting a job if he continues on and gets his CFI. I think that question got answered. Then you guys jump in and basically tell the guy he's already failed. Way to go.

 

As far as Mr. Avbug's statements, I'm not really sure why you post here. You don't seem to want to mentor, or inform. You just argue and belittle. So I assume you are here purely for entertainment? Some of us are here to learn, and to mentor. Maybe as a Life Flight pilot you don't feel new pilots need to be mentored, you've been working in a sink or swim flight environment for so long you forgot what it was like as a newbie. As a CFI, it IS my job. And as a relative newbie myself, I have not lost touch with what it is like to be in the OP's shoes. I hope that he makes the right decision for HIM, and isn't swayed by garbage statements like "IF YOU HAVE TO *DECIDE*, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS."

[avbug]

You don't seem to want to mentor, or inform.

 

You're upset because someone doesn't want to coddle you and hold your hand?

 

Under what obligation is it, exactly, that I'm to mentor you? I'm not.

 

Do I care if you make a career out of it, or succeed in your career? I do not. Am I obligated to care? I am not.

 

Am I paid to see you get ahead in your career? I am not. I am paid to fly, to turn wrenches, and to work for my employers. You aren't my employer.

 

Maybe as a Life Flight pilot you don't feel new pilots need to be mentored, you've been working in a sink or swim flight environment for so long you forgot what it was like as a newbie.

 

I'm not a lifeflight pilot. I'm flying fires at the moment, due to end any day. I don't care if new pilots get mentored. Aviation is very much a sink or swim environment. I'm not here to help you learn to swim. It's very simple. Swim, or you won't make it.

 

I know very much what it's like to be a "newbie." I was one for the first ten years or so. You haven't even scratched the surface yet.

 

Mentors are not supposed to tell people they aren't cut out for something.

 

Good ones do.

 

In this business, if one isn't fully committed, one won't make it.

Edited September 15, 2012 by avbug

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey everybody, first i apologize for not being here much lately, i have been very busy for one, and also some of us are not posting as much due to this sort of stuff:

 

Nightstalker said:

 

I am honestly shocked that individuals like MikeMV and RkyMtnHI would stand by what Spike is saying, not that I disagree with ALL of it Spike, just the sentence I quoted above.

 

now, before you get pissed at me please finish reading this post; in my opinion nightstalker has shared some good stuff and i like the fact that he gives back, not enough of that going around in our business for sure, but i use this sentence above to elaborate.. (Just for the record, i frequently print out Spike's posts and tack them to the wall in one of our training rooms, he has always been one that gives back and obviously has tons of real experience). Some of us have been refraining from posting lately because others are taking one sentence, maybe posted in haste or just written wrong, and taking it all out of context. Once again, i am late for a tour day and have to get along, and even now worrying that i am not getting the point across the way i want to... I typed a two page post about my thoughts and experience on log book fudging, and know that others did as well, but didn't post it due to the way topics have run amuck lately. IMHO this is the best place on the internet for a new upcoming or potential pilot, and i tell people daily to come here and do their research.. it's because of folks like you all that keep it going and i hope you all stick and keep giving back. I do also believe that we have to tell the new folks just how hard it can be, and that not all will make it. So many schools tell the prospective students just what they want to hear, and sugar coat it to no end to get them in and flying. We get them coming in almost every week, with huge debt and broken dreams, because they didn't do their research, because they picked the wrong school, because their instructors kept flying them even tho it was clear they were on the wrong path. It's tough to tell the truth sometimes, but we owe it to them. This business is a hard one, it is rewarding and amazing, but the road is tough, and the sooner they realize it the easier it may be for them. (oh yeah, i completely agree with avbug; good mentors do tell people if they aren't cut out for something, in this biz, rigorous honesty might save lives, and the life you save might not be your own).

 

Wish i had more time to be make sure i'm coming across the way i want.. please, in my case and others, take our past posts and focuses into account before you center on one thing we say and change the whole topic... if some of the old timers (and i'm not talking about myself here) see the focus fading they simply stop contributing, and in my very humble opinion they are the best part of this forum.

 

aloha,

 

dp

[Mikemv]

Nightsta1ker,

 

Mentoring is not always pushing someone forward (sometimes we perceive them as being at the edge of a cliff). There are times the truth needs to be told. You do a great job having a supportive tone here on VR.

 

You and I have interfaced outside of VR. It should not surprise you that I might like a post by Spike or Avbug. Both of them are seasoned professionals and though we may agree or disagree on an internet thread, it is just our opinion posted about a topic.

 

Avbug and I have gone forth and back on threads here but if we were working a fire together as professionals we would support each others efforts to get the job done to the max. We could have coffee or beers together at the end of a day and discuss better ways to do things on the fire or how either of us performed, good or not so good. If you look back, you will see that I liked some of his other posts.

 

About Spike, you will see that I like a lot of what he posts. He calls things as he sees them. Sometimes I agree, other times not enough to like the post. It does not mean what he says is correct or not just because I give him a like or not!

 

Nightsta1ker, you know I am a "Here for you" in life maybe just not "Here" with you on every internet post.

 

Best wishes,

 

MikeMV

[nightsta1ker]

Got it. I'm not alienating you because you liked one post I dislike. I just don't agree that ANYONE should be telling someone they don't know anything about that they don't have what it takes to be a professional pilot. I think that's dead wrong. Yes mentors sometimes need to have "the talk" with someone. Ive not had to do that yet, but I imagine I will. But we don't even know the OP, his situation, his personality, his financial situation, his ability to learn and communicate what he's learned, or anything else that might be pertinent. He might be AWESOME pilot material. Who are we to judge. Should we warn him about the pitfalls of the industry, absolutely! Should we tell him he's already failed because he had to think about whether or not he really wants to go forward? I don't think so.

 

I like Spike, we bump heads frequently but I've talke with him off line and we see eye to eye on most things. Mike, you have been an inspiration, though we have disagreed a few time as well, I don't hold that against anyone. DP, your flight school is the model that we are trying to achieve at my school, and once we really get our feet off the ground, I think we can do it. I am sure Avbug is a great pilot and is very professional in the cockpit, but his remarks on here are always extremely abrasive in nature and seem more intended on generating an emotional reaction (read: Trolling) than actually discussing things in a civil matter. I do like some of his points regardless of my distaste for his general attitude.

 

At the end of the day, I really don't care about anything said on here. It doesn't keep me up at night. High time pilots seem to think that their experience makes everything they say infallible. This is nonsense. I agree with most of what Spike says, but not everything. Experienced or not, that doesnt mean he's always right. Nor you Mike. Avbug has pretty much made it perfectly clear that he has no desire to be an encouraging member of this forum, but his pressence here is valuable none the less. I have worked with types like him. It can be very challenging, but one must understand the types of people they will have to deal with in aviation. There are a lot of Avbugs out there.

 

Let me be perfectly clear. I do not expect, nor desire, any hand holding. I get slammed on these forums daily for my opinions, and I slam people right back. This forum has been an outlet for some very controversial topics of late, several of which I have instigated. If this is giving anyone heartburn I recommend two tums and an afternoon of Golf, or some other relaxing activity away from the computer.

[Spike]

 

 

I do consider myself a pilot who has prevailed. Considering how many pilots I know without jobs. I agree that if you lack the motivation you won't get anywhere. I have a set of goals that I want to achieve. I cannot, at this time, achieve them as a full time instructor, so I teach on weekends until I reach my goals. At that time, I will take a full time position that I am confident will be there for me. It has been offered, but it would not work for me right at the moment. I am at the beginning of my career, and I have a long way to go, but I am working towards my goals and succeeding at my own pace. Something you seemed to imply is not likely. Sure, I'm not a 10,000 hour pilot with twin turbine time and a job history 3 pages long, but I am an employed pilot, even if only part time.

 

I was merely sniping at your inherent negativity. You always seem to be very quick in trying to talk people out of flying. I encourage people to be realistic, but I don't like telling people they can't do something.

 

You said: "IF YOU HAVE TO *DECIDE*, THEN YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO SUCCEED IN THIS BUSINESS." Implying that the OP has already failed because he has not yet made a decision about whether or not he wants to continue. I had to make that decision at one point. It was a hard decision, and I decided that I had better be careful about how I go about doing it, which is why I am still part time rather than full time. I am making it work for me. I think the OP can too if he wants to. Quit being so negative. We are supposed to be helping people, not shattering dreams. Reality checks are OK, telling someone they don't have what it takes based off of a general inquiry is not.

 

You assume a lot.

 

I come here to inform those who are ignorant to the ways of this business. The information I provide will not always be pretty but, it will be honest and, based on my experience.

 

YOU say I'm "inherently negative and always seem to be very quick in trying to talk people out of flying". Really? Prove it. Go back and read my past content and tell me how anything I post is "inherently negative" or "attempt to talk others out of flying". Once you've done this, go over to the Justhelicopters Alternate site and read my "ikesspike" posts going back to 2005 and do the same. To assist you, why don't you start with these:

 

http://www.justhelicopters.com/COMMUNITY/JHFORUMS/JHAlternateForum/tabid/180/forumid/1/postid/24140/view/topic/Default.aspx

 

http://www.justhelicopters.com/COMMUNITY/JHFORUMS/JHAlternateForum/tabid/180/forumid/1/postid/19670/view/topic/Default.aspx

 

http://www.justhelicopters.com/COMMUNITY/JHFORUMS/JHAlternateForum/tabid/180/forumid/1/postid/11163/view/topic/Default.aspx

 

http://www.justhelicopters.com/COMMUNITY/JHFORUMS/JHAlternateForum/tabid/180/forumid/1/postid/22122/view/topic/Default.aspx

 

(sidebar: For those who've been around, Mr. Dempd is our ole friend Butters)

 

But by all means, read all of my contributions and then please clarify your accusations.

 

Furthermore, this isn't about ME nor is it about YOU. I simply responded to a question presented by Helicoptered. YOU, for whatever reason, change the context and make it about you and your opinion. To wit; your above post, you state "I" 24 times.

 

BTW the definition of Mentor: "somebody, usually older and more experienced, who advises and guides a younger, less experienced person". The fact is, you belittle me as a "Grumpy old pilot" and therefore want the reader to discount my reply in order to attract attention to you. Typical of today's generation.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Spike

[nightsta1ker]

Snipped for brevity.

 

I have neither the time nor inclination to go back through miles of threads and find evidence to support my opinion. Glad you have time to support yours. I've made my ultimate point. You can disagree with how I made it all you want. Readers will decide who is right or relevant on the issue at hand. I never said I am always right either, and looking back at some of what I wrote, I could easily tear aspects of my own arguments to pieces. It happens. I'm going back to business as usual now. See you around the water cooler.