how many cfi's without jobs?

[nightsta1ker]

Something tells me that Helicoptered won't be asking any more questions on internet forums?

 

*Facepalm*

[michaels214]

FYI - this is my first post. Im a total noob. I havent even started my training (October). But I do have something to say to add, if I may. I actually just registered for this forum specifically to post on this thread.

 

Like I said, Im a total NOOB. I have been reading and reading on forums like this for months now. I gotta say Ive never seen anything like this - that all started from a guy asking specifically for replies from CFI's who are unemployed. Some say the OP wasnt being specific enough right? When I read his post I was under the impression that he was looking for members of this forum (or people they know), who are CFI's without jobs. Thats just what i thought! And hes yet to find one person reply saying they are a CFI with no job - so its looking good buddy! LOL

 

After reading so much I've seen so many different types of advice to a person asking for opinions on employment, schools, doubts, etc. The conclusion Ive come to is what a lot of people are saying on here - which is if you want to make it happen, then you will make it happen. Ive had people at my last job tell me that im crazy for quitting my job and pursuing this, they know someone (usually a friend of a friend) who did it and never got jobs...People on forums saying "you only make $2000-$2500 as an instructor" (which I think is awesome cause thats the kind of $$ I was making as a bartender most of the time - minus my last job which was more like $3k a month), you will eat ramen for years (Im from Hawaii, ramen is standard lol), etc...Basically so many things to warn you.

 

Honestly, I dont take much of it to heart anymore. Because personally, I have my mind set on going through this program and making it work for me. I really have no other choice. Im from a lower class family, never had much opportunities - and now (at 29) im fortunate enough to be given the opportunity to go through this program on an interest free loan by people very close to me. Like I said, I cannot let my girl, son, and family down - this is not an option. Do you feel the same way about anything? If you do then you can and will make it happen.

[SBuzzkill]

Who cares? It's not like he ever came back to participate in the conversation he started. I hate it when people do that.

[nightsta1ker]

Who cares? It's not like he ever came back to participate in the conversation he started. I hate it when people do that.

 

Let's just hope that he got enough information to make a sound decision and missed out on all the BS that followed.

[avbug]

Avbug, I refer you to your own post...

 

You have no topical input then, either? Very well. We see a pattern here. Poster after poster entering the thread with nothing whatsoever to offer. Your'e yet another.

 

Big surprise, isn't it?

 

Not really.

[SBuzzkill]

He didn't even sign back in after making it.

[avbug]

He didn't even sign back in after making it.

 

The original poster entered with a question about continuing his or her training beyond the instrument rating. However, without a commercial certificate, the poster asked if he or she should "continue as a profession." The original poster doesn't have a profession to continue.

 

A better question might have been weather or not to continue training.

 

I am about too complete my instrument rating , and I am trying to decide whether to continue it as a profession. I am just worried that if I invest lots of money and my local school does not hire me, it would all be wasted?

 

The original poster's grammer and syntax sounds young, and doesn't sound as though English is the first choice of language. A foreign student, perhaps?

 

The original poster questions whether the investment in training will be worth the money (and ostensibly, time). The question as to what the value sought by the original poster is must be answered first. Worth it in terms of what? In terms of good experience? Possibly: that's a value judgement. Worth it in terms of a future career? That can only be answered after establishing a career: one must assess the stability, income, and satisfaction of the career before deciding if the investment in the training (and subsequent career) was worth it. Worth it in terms of getting the next job? One can't get hired anywhere without basic certification, and the original poster doesn't have that, yet.

 

Without basic pilot certification, the original poster can't get hired doing anything, whether or not it's instructing. If the original poster wants a shot at flying for a living, completing training is absolutely essential.

 

If the original poster is asking if he or she stands a chance of getting hired, that's all but impossible to assess from the post. Schools which hire a proportionately large number of their students still only hire part of the students. Given that many who undertake training do not go on to fly for a living, it's expected that only some of the students will be hired. Of those that do seek a job with the school, not all will be hired: some aren't suited to the job, some aren't suited to that schools's particularly operating style or needs, some are simply surplus.

 

The ability of an individual to get hired after completing training is very much within the control of the student. There are no guarantees, but the student who follows school policies, strives for excellence, works exceptionally well with others, goes the extra mile in recruiting and retaining students, and invests himself or herself fully in the school is far more likely to secure employment than the student who does not.

 

When I was instructing full time, I towed an aircraft through a parade, arranged and conducted banner towing to recruit students, visited schools and businesses with flyers and business cards, put together mall displays, taught ground schools, brought students to the school, and found other ways to make myself useful and of value to the school. I turned wrenches when not flying, and found employment doing the books, fueling and washing aircraft, and any other way I could to ensure that I had my fingers in as much of the pie as possible. I started local tours for them, and towed banners, and did other things with the aircraft in and out of the school to create as much utilization as possible.

 

When it came to teaching, I built realistic models in my spare time for use in ground training. I invested in student headsets and intercoms. I arranged for my own printing of solo certificates and other awards, and I maintained a thorough database of contacts. I followed up on every one, regularly. Even with students who discontinued their training, I maintained phone and mail contact, sending cards and invitations. I gave introductory flights, and did anything I could to drum up and maintain business for the school. Other instructors came and went. I found it hard to make a living doing instructing, and I carried outside work on my own, working two (and sometimes three jobs) to keep things flowing. I sought out and trained foreign students as well as domestic ones.

 

Not everyone needs to do this; most don't do that much. That's fine. For those who question their ability to retain an instructing position, however, bear in mind that the amount of dedication one puts into the position (and the way this dedication is viewed by the employer) are key elements in weather or not one manages to be one of those who gets hired and stays hired, as a low-time pilot. Nobody here can answer the original poster's question: he or she must answer it through action and dedication, more than words.

 

Does the original poster prefer to show up in a worn-out tee shirt and ripped jeans, talks slang and profanity, and spits chew in a bottle while while working with others at the school? Does the student sit up, pay attention, study hard and show up prepared for lessons, speak clearly and intelligently, and generally act in the manner the school wants to see a representative of their school act? These are questions for the original poster, and for those observing him or her at the school. A good way to begin preparing to work as an instructor is to begin acting like one.

 

When I'm seeking employment in aviation, I'm not at all concerned with the number of aviators or mechanics who are out of work. I'm only concerned with being more valuable than the ones who are competing for the same job. If I can do that and convince the employer to hire me, then I've met my aim. If a thousand out of work pilots, instructors, or mechanics are competing for another job in another state, at another company, even just across the ramp, I don't care: I only care about this company, here, today. It's easy to view the statistics and think they apply to you. They don't, unless every warm body that's part of that demographic is competing against you today, here, at this job, and at this company.

 

A lot of professional aviators have instructor certification. I've maintained it for many years, even increased it by adding a qualification here or there. It's been a long time since I instructed full time. Even part time. I maintain it for three reasons: I worked hard to get it and I don't want to have to do it again; it's a part of my total qualifications package on my resume; and finally I do sometimes work places where it gets used. Several years ago I found myself in need of work; a company hired me initially in the shop, then quickly had me doing flying in the morning, as well as instructing of company personnel, and finally assigned me as a check airman. Having the instructor certification was integral to keeping employed, even though it wasn't what got me in the door.

 

The point of that is that there are many of us out there who are qualified as instructors, who aren't working as instructors. If one looks at the statistics and simply asks how many instructors are out of work, or in other words, aren't instructing, one gets a badly skewed image of the potential work picture out there. Of the many professionals on the ramp, the pad, and in the hangars and cockpits out there, few (if any) of us will be competing with the original poster for an instructing job. They just don't pay well enough and for most of us, they do represent somewhat of a step backward. Many of us enjoy working with students. I always have: I fly for a living, however, and it's my source of income. I can't afford to go back to instructing full time. Most of us can't.

 

Those who are in training and looking for that all-important first job need to understand this: there are many, many instructors who aren't working as instructors. The majority of them are either one's who have other jobs, or don't instruct any more. We aren't looking to take the instructor jobs. Most of us likely wouldn't get hired at a school anyway. I've approached schools before about doing some part time work (even full time work when times were tough), and I've been told point blank "you're over qualified." I disagree, but schools don't want someone like me to come on board full time. They know that I'm going to find a better paying job when I can that's more suited to my experience and background. They want a new instructor who has no choice but to stay with them, who's hungry enough to work for the low wages, and who's motivated enough to do exactly what I did when I was a new instructor.

 

If the original poster fits that description, then the original poster probably stands as good a chance as any at pursuing a career at the entry-level stage of his burgeoning career. If the original poster doesn't fit that description, then it's entirely up to him or her to take the effort to be competitive and of value to the school. Do that, and that person has a shot.

 

Don't, and join the ranks of the unemployed. Their choice.

[nightsta1ker]

Removed. Pointless.

Edited September 17, 2012 by nightsta1ker

[ridethisbike]

Shortened because that's a long post...

 

Most of those things I can see as being feasible for someone who already has the job and is trying to do what you did: remain as valuable to the company as possible.

 

For the up and comer, still going through training, what would you recommend be done? Obviously, a good portion of those aren't an option for someone still holding a student status with the school. Show up, help the IP's wash the birds in the morning and put them away at night, as well as be a stellar student, I feel would be a good start, but other than that, what other options do we have that I'm not seeing?

[avbug]

As stated before, be the image of the instructor. Act like an instructor ought to act. Don't slouch. Talk without slang. Study hard, know the material. Show up to lessons prepared. Dress respectably.

 

Some students have the impression that because they're paying through the nose, they ought to be able to be very informal and relaxed. That's true, and they are paying, but if they want a job after they're done, it pays to act in accordance with a higher standard. Pretend that rather than just paying for the lessons, one's actually representing the school, and employed there. Visualize it.

 

Get involved. Prepare for the ground instructor certification. One doesn't need to be a commercial pilot to do that. Study ahead; take the test, get the certificate. Begin teaching.

 

Wash the aircraft. See about getting involved in little ways. Talk up the school. Get students coming in. A student that's already bringing in business before reaching the instructor chair is doing well; he or she has already demonstrated solid effort on behalf of the business.

 

An average student seeks to get through the checkride. An above average one seeks to impress. Some students are impressive; they've put in the effort, and it shows. They clearly take their job seriously. They see their learning as more than a hobby; they see it as their mission, their job. They stand out. It's impressive to see a student with that attitude. Students like that tend to get ahead.

 

Be at the school; don't just show up for lessons. Show up on time, stay after, but be seen. There's a lot to be said for being seen. Don't be the one that can't wait to get out the door to hang out with friends. If you're going to study, pick a classroom and study. Be the one who turns out the lights, and the one who shows up in the morning to study. It's more than just studying. It's being seen being serious. It gets noticed. Getting noticed being dedicated means something to an employer; it should mean something to a student. Your'e not there to put on a show, but you're certainly in need of being recognized for your dedication and effort.

 

I used to sit in the aircraft and and study. I always made sure I was blindfold-proficient with the cockpit. Be able to reach out and touch anything without fumbling for it. It might save your life, and it's a dedication that goes beyond showing up for the lesson and then leaving as soon as it's done. Do the same thing with your drills and emergency procedures. Have them memorized, fluidly. Know them from memory, be able to do the flows in the cockpit. Don't fumble for information. Know the limitations and the aircraft manual cleanly. Students who are on the ball stand out.

 

Stand out.

 

The other things I indicated, putting aircraft in the parade, setting up mall displays, and all the other things...much of that I did before I was ever employed to instruct. You don't need to be an instructor to do things that put you in a good position to be hired.

 

It's never a bad idea to sit down with the head instructor or the chief pilot or the owner for a chat about what he or she wants to see out of you, to get you hired. Express the desire. Tell them you're working toward that position and you want to do everything in your power to fill that seat. Make it clear up front. Don't wait until the day of your CFI checkride and then say "by the way, can you use me?"

 

Visualize the job. Practice teaching the material. Get proficient with lesson plans and presenting the material. Practice on family and friends. Tell your instructor about it. Let him or her know what you're trying to do, and start getting in the habit of explaining material now. You don't need to be an instructor to be doing that. Get on boards such as this and take your best shot at answering questions that come up. Get involved in the discussions. There's a difference between being able to explain something or discuss it, and being a hotshot pilot. Instructing isn't about being a hotshot; it's about being able to explain, to talk, to recognize mistakes, and to provide correction and insight. Get practiced doing that now.

[Spike]

Snipped cuz it’s f’n long!

 

Well put.

 

What you explained is exactly what I have not only experienced myself, but what I have seen from other individuals and, expected when my position dictated so. Plus, if I might add, Helicoptereds question, while vague and ambiguous, stated a level of doubt at the first step. This is why I stated the “if you have to decide” sentence. Simply put, training is considered the very beginning and, quite frankly, the easy part. The road beyond that is much, much harder. A simple analogy would be; if I made a decision to walk across the US and began to doubt, or be concerned about my endeavor after the first mile....

 

The saying goes: “he who hesitates is lost”. The people who succeed in this business never hesitate, nor ever doubt what they were taking on. That is, they don’t let it happen, they make it happen…

[zippiesdrainage]

Alright everyone, this topic became very confusing so I've created a condensed version for those of you too busy to read all of the posts up until now:

 

Post 1: Should I complete helicopter training?

Post 2: It depends on if you work hard

Post 3: It can be done but it will be hard

Post 4: Post 2 is correct

Post 5: Keep your head up, you can do it.

Post 6: Good luck it’s tough but you can do it.

Post 7: Be a good pilot and role model and you can do it

Post 8: You might make it, or maybe you should just fly for fun.

Post 9: Boatpix trying to sell themselves.

Post 10: Boatpix trying to sell themselves.

Post 11: If you don’t know for sure, it’s probably not for you

Post 11: Hiring a CFI in Spain

Post 12: Your job posting doesn’t belong here

Post 13: Spike is an angry individual don’t let him scare you

Post 14: I’m not grumpy, (proceeds to act sort-a grumpy)

Post 15: Groans because of Boatpix trying to sell themselves

Post 16: Spike is a grumpy individual

Post 17: The industry doesn’t owe any pilot anything

Post 18: Be a good mentor people named spike and people who agree with him are grumpy

Post 19: No we aren’t

Post 20: I’m sick of these topics and sometimes people are grumpy

Post 21: No we aren’t

Post 22: No we aren’t

Post 23: Yes you are

Post 24: No we aren’t

Post 25: Yes you are

Post 26: No we aren’t

Post 27: Ok maybe you aren’t

Post 28: What was the topic again? You should think about others and help them

Post 29: People need to sink or swim on their own

Post 30: How many CFIs are there without jobs?

Post 31: Boatpix trying to sell themselves

Post 32: Boatpix’s is selling snake oil

Post 33: Boatpix is selling snake oil

Post 34: clarify the original question or I will taunt you

Post 35: Shut up post 34

Post 36: I enjoy my job as a helicopter pilot

Post 37: Accuses post 35 of being 14 years old

Post 38: Smartass response by Spike

Post 39: enjoying post 38

Post 40: Shut up post 34

Post 41: Angry at people who disliked his post 34

Post 42: Shut up post 41+34

Post 43: Enjoying post 42

Post 44: Enjoying post 42

Post 45: Angry at people who disliked his post 34 and 41

Post 46: I’m tired of this topic

Post 47: Be more creative than saying shut up when in the forums

Post 48: Angry at post 46

Post 49: I like Spike and I also disliked post 34 and 41

Post 50: The original topic poster is long gone

Post 51: facepalm

Post 52: Hi I’m new here and I want to be a helicopter pilot

Post 53: Who cares if the original poster is long gone?

Post 54: Let’s hope he got his info before the crazy set in

Post 55: disliked post 34 and 41

Post 56: The original poster is long gone and hasn’t come back

Post 57: The original poster was most likely a young foreign student who wore t-shirts rather than a suit

Post 58: Removed

Post 59: Be a good student and professional also I disliked post 34 and 41

Post 60: Try hard and be professional

Post 61: Don’t hesitate and if you want to do it then do it

[SBuzzkill]

Hahaha! Nice work.

[jimbo2181]

Awesome.

[eagle5]

The condensed version is much more entertaining! If you have a few days with nothing to do, try doing it to "fudging the logbook", that one would be hilarious!

[michaels214]

where you at helicoptered? What have you decided on?

[aeroscout]

Being the author of post number 7, I am adamantly convinced your condensed version was too long, and involved. It can be condensed much further without impacting the meaning, or cheapening it to the point of corrupting it.

 

For accuracy, I should probably directly quote the condensed version of my original post 7

 

"Post 7: Be a good pilot and role model and you can do it"

 

edit elaboration

Edited September 18, 2012 by aeroscout

[ridethisbike]

Post 67: Dislikes post number 62

[Hovergirl]

Hahahaha! love it.

 

(Grumpy sometimes, but not in print...)

[gary-mike]

Nice one Zippy

[500E]

Interesting comments on my post #12

1 it is not my job posting, I heard about it due to work carried out for the company.

2 As this thread is regarding employment or not! I would think a fair few readers are either employed or unemployed or even looking to change positions, so a good place to post.

 

It is interesting the 3 people who enquired Emailed me direct so I suspect they were told about it from a direct contact not this site.

No US interest, 1 NZ ,1 Far East. & a UK.

Al I did was give them a phone No.

The guy that has job will be flying an 18 month old 300, fair wage + living allowance,with the option of doing fixed wing as well.

[Francis Meyrick]

I've enjoyed the hell out of post #62. It still makes me laugh.

 

Can somebody PLEASE take offense to somebody's post so we can continue offending somebody?

 

Ah mean, ah mean...?

 

Eh?

 

PS: Spam is healthy in small doses, and here's a picture of contentment in a small dose..

 

[eagle5]

Can somebody PLEASE take offense to somebody's post so we can continue offending somebody?

 

 

I've been gone for a while so I'll take a shot at it.

 

I found a job last year with a small operation flying a 44, mainly ENG with some Tours and Photos every so often. Then I discovered that I don't like spending hours every day in a helicopter. My knees hurt, my back hurts, and when its your job you HAVE to be up there, whether you feel like it or not! I once thought that this was worth living in my car because the pay was crap while I built up my hours, but after doing it I've definitely changed my mind! After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f**k this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks!

 

That ought to offend somebody?

 

By the way, its been like a year and a half since Helicoptered started this thread, I wonder what he decided to do? These types of OPs never come back to say what happened to them!

[aeroscout]

This thread has been officially resurrected.

[Francis Meyrick]

 

After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f*ck this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks!

 

That ought to offend somebody?

Ah! You prove the Venerable Old Theorem I just invented:

 

"The Joy of Rotary Flying is directly inversely proportional to I.Q. at hand."

 

Meaning, those of us who giggle hysterically pulling in first pitch at dawn, are the intellectual retards, Those who sniff in Jet A fumes in the morning, and feel awesome, are the Dinosovarian throw backs, the Neanderthalers of our Age.

 

Poor fellow. You obviously have a brain. How awful for you...