Interrogator to Army Aviator

[jag32]

To begin, I am currently an active duty Sergeant in the Marines. I have a TS/SCI clearance, I have multiple combat deployments under my belt both as an infantryman (MOS 0351) and as a counterintelligence agent/interrogator (MOS 0211). I have a BA in International Relations with a 3.5 GPA and I also have a Masters in Diplomacy with a GPA of 3.7. I am an instrument rated pilot with an FAA commercial license and about 650 total flight hours. I am on my second enlistment in the Marine Corps (I have 6 years TIS and 2 more remaining on my current enlisted contract) and went through the process of obtaining an approval for conditional release (DD-368) from from the Commandant of the Marine Corps to separate from the Marine Corps as soon as I am accepted into a commissioning or warrant officer program of any branch and nullifying the remaining time on my current enlisted obligation - it was approved. My goal is to become an Army Aviator through the WOFT program and my conditional release from the Marine Corps is good through November 2013, so basically, I have until November 2013 to be accepted into the WOFT program. I already have an FAA class 1 medical and I have a 117 GT score (I think my AFQT is a 72?). I believe I am a good candidate for WOFT, but there is one black mark in my past.... in my first year in the Marine Corps I received an NJP (or as the Army calls it, an Article 15) for being in a convoy of humvees when one of the humvees had a rollover accident. Everyone in the convoy received a blanket NJP (Article 15) whether they were in the vehicle that rolled or not, I had no involvement whatsoever other than being in the backseat of the last vehicle in the convoy when the first vehicle was the one that rolled, but nonetheless I was still there and received an NJP (Article 15) along with everyone else- I am still pretty angry about it and the fact that someone else's mistake is now a permanent part of my record, and now I have to obtain a moral waiver to be able to apply for the WOFT program. I contacted a civilian military attorney to try and get this removed from my official record, but the process with the Naval Board of Record Corrections could take 2+ years, so I still need to get a moral waiver for WOFT. If anyone here has any advice for me, I would greatly appreciate it. I read many posts on here about people getting approved for moral waivers for worse misgivings like having an arrest record, etc. so I don't think I should have any trouble for something as benign as my incident, but regardless, the fact that I even need a moral waiver in the first place is very unsettling to me. Any advice or input is certainly appreciated, both regarding my need for a moral waiver as well as my overall chances if/when I get a waiver approved. My motivation for wanting to become an Army Aviator is quite clear to me, I have been in far too many firefights on the ground where the only reason I am still alive today is because of Army Aviators in AH-64s who routinely got myself and my comrades out of harms way in the most extreme of circumstances. My passion for aviation combined with an unwavering admiration for the work that I have personally seen Army Aviators do from above is remarkable, and it is the field I ultimately want to retire from in the military.

 

Thanks

[Optamix]

I don't see any reason you wouldn't be able to get a moral waiver for that, unless you just bomb the SIFT it sounds like you will be a shoe in for the WOFT program. If contact someone on the WO recruiting team and speak with them about the steps for getting a waiver approved.

[UnitedWeStand111]

If they don't approve your waiver I would be surprised, you are super squared away Sergeant. Im an ignorant civilian, my moral waiver was denied, but I was no where near as competitive/qualified as yourself. Best of luck and thank you for your service.

[jag32]

If they don't approve your waiver I would be surprised, you are super squared away Sergeant. Im an ignorant civilian, my moral waiver was denied, but I was no where near as competitive/qualified as yourself. Best of luck and thank you for your service.

 

Don't sell yourself short. If you don't mind me asking, what was your moral waiver for?

[01CelicaGTS]

If you don't mind me asking, what was your moral waiver for?

 

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/15465-intro-chances-for-woft-updates/page__st__320?do=findComment&comment=121919

[UnitedWeStand111]

Don't sell yourself short. If you don't mind me asking, what was your moral waiver for?

 

Thanks. +7 law violations requires some sort of moral waiver, at least thats what they told me at MEPS as a NPS civilian. I don't know anything about in-service waivers though.

 

http://helicopterfor...320#entry121919

 

Thanks I guess? haha have fun at Rucker dude!

 

To the OP, hopefully some experienced people will chime in and help you out. How did you manage to get 2 degrees while enlisted in the Marines in 6 years, as well as 650hrs of flight time?! That's damn impressive

[wm200]

I don't really understand why you still post here

[UnitedWeStand111]

Just trying to help others in a positive manner. Don't like it, go kick rocks.

[stearmann4]

Jag, Your request for a morale waiver isn't any more heinous that most I've seen, however the next couple of recruiting years you'll be facing a temporary window of waivers not likely to be approved as a down sizing measure. A couple of years a go it might have not been a big deal. The issue with moral waivers is that you might have a perfectly logical and acceptable justification to accompany it to the board. However, if we sit down at the board briefing and the president of the board says something like "This board will not be entertaining any age, or moral waivers.." it doesn't matter how well you explained it, the reviewing board member won't ever see it because your application wont make it to the board. That's not to say you should go through the process and perhaps it won't be an issue. I do know for Marines it's usually cutting your own (career) throat to mention WOFT when requesting a conditional release so I understand the need to have some idea of certainty before you make the commitment. Otherwise, it would appear to be the Army's loss not to select you. Mike-

[jag32]

Jag, Your request for a morale waiver isn't any more heinous that most I've seen, however the next couple of recruiting years you'll be facing a temporary window of waivers not likely to be approved as a down sizing measure. A couple of years a go it might have not been a big deal. The issue with moral waivers is that you might have a perfectly logical and acceptable justification to accompany it to the board. However, if we sit down at the board briefing and the president of the board says something like "This board will not be entertaining any age, or moral waivers.." it doesn't matter how well you explained it, the reviewing board member won't ever see it because your application wont make it to the board. That's not to say you should go through the process and perhaps it won't be an issue. I do know for Marines it's usually cutting your own (career) throat to mention WOFT when requesting a conditional release so I understand the need to have some idea of certainty before you make the commitment. Otherwise, it would appear to be the Army's loss not to select you. Mike-

Mike,

I appreciate the response. I have an excellent reputation within the community I work for in the Marines and as such, was able to already easily secure a conditional release which has been authorized by Headquarters Marine Corps. All I need to do at this point is be accepted into WOFT by the Army. I have a letter of recommendation from a retired Air Force 3-star General who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam and the Gulf War; a letter of recommendation from a Marine Major who is a CH-53 pilot; a letter of recommendation from a Marine LtCol who is a Cobra pilot; a letter of recommendation from my civilian CFI; a letter of recommendation from an Army CW4 AH-64 pilot; a letter of recommendation from an Army Captain (medical officer); and a letter of recommendation from my immediate commanding officer (Marine Captain) who was my direct supervisor on my most recent deployment to Afghanistan as a counterintelligence agent/interrogator.

 

On a side note, I applied to the FBI, was designated "most competitive" and passed all requisite testing and received a conditional offer of employment to become a Special Agent where I would be operating within either their counterintelligence or counter-terrorism directorates- I am 27.5 years old and I firmly believe that you only live once and being a professional military aviator has always been a dream of mine. Right now i'm at the point in my life where it is going to be either now or never to become a military aviator and I am prepared to forgo the FBI, at least for the next six years, if I am accepted into WOFT. Additionally, I passed the U.S. State Department Foreign Service exam and the subsequent oral exam and received a conditional offer of employment to become a U.S. Diplomat (Political Diplomacy Foreign Service Officer). I am on the State Departments register right now and am anticipating an A-100 class (essentially boot camp for brand new diplomats) the first month after I separate from the Marine Corps. The FBI, the State Department, and the DOD security clearances adjudicators do not care about this NJP (Article 15) on my military record from my first year in the Marines, however I am praying the Army sees it the same way. I do not mind passing up the opportunity to be an FBI Special Agent or a U.S. diplomat in order to become an Army Aviator. Aviation is a passion of mine, and everything else is just work to me- the Army aviation community is where I want to be. The FBI and the State Department will always be there, as their age limits are significantly higher than what is required for WOFT, 37 and 52 respectively.

[Lindsey]

Jag, I sincerely hope that you make it. I wish you the best of luck.

 

Thank you for your service.

[akscott60]

You are set for life man. I am jealous.

[stearmann4]

Jag, get an LOR from your Battalion Commander, your Company Commander and one from a senior NATOPs instructor and one of the USMC squadrons you have a good relationship with, or a senior Army WO aviator if you have access You can only have 3 LORs and the USAREC regs tell you exactly who they must be from. Go get your Army flight physical and submit your stuff. The process will either render you a WOC, or give you valuable insight for your follow up application. One of the tragedy's is watching good potential applicants waste valuable time trying to get a favorable/reasonable assurance of success before they apply, without an application in front of the next board it's 100% you won't get selected. Get er' done! Mike-

[Velocity173]

Jag, obviously you have the creditials that the WOFT program is looking for. As Mike said it would appear to be a loss for the Army not to have you on board. I would hope they would examine your NJP and realize you had no connection to said incident. Like to know what kind of commander issues a blanket NJP for a roll over. We had one in OIF 2 where the driver fell asleep and no one was punished. Price of war.

 

Good to hear your conditional release went smoothly. Mine didn't. First, the CoC wasnt please that I was "jumping ship" from an MOS (ATC) that needed people desperately. Then you get the usual snide remarks of "why you wanna go and join the Army for? You're a Marine." This usually comes from people who are envious because they didn't realize they could fly without a commission and now they don't have the time or credentials to get accepted. It was really a bad last few months for me in the Marines. While most of my friends thought it was awesome that I was going after my dream, some looked at me like some kind of trader. Needless to say my end of service award wasn't very good. On a side note, with your degrees and Marine experience I'm curious as to why you wouldn't apply to Marine AOCS? We do have the best helicopters and pilots in the Army but I was just wondering.

 

Good luck to ya. You got a good start going but you still have some work to do. Gotta get that SIFT thing done and a few more administrative details. Oh yeah get your flight phys done from an Army Doc and not a Navy one. Will definitely speed up the acceptance process at Rucker. Should have a real competitive packet when your done though.

[d10]

The FBI and the State Department will always be there, as their age limits are significantly higher than what is required for WOFT, 37 and 52 respectively.

 

You'll be getting close to the FBI age limit if you go through with the WOFT option. You'll need to graduate flight school before turning 31. You can expect that to happen between 1.5-2 years after you show up for WOCS. So I'd say if you're not selected within the next year you should start thinking about it in terms of which one you'd prefer, because you probably can't do both. The FBI has a pretty good helicopter unit too as I'm sure you know. It's a lot more competitive to get in but it's a much better position than being an Army pilot imo.

[Grind]

This.

 

This f*cking right here is what EVERY f*cking soldier/marine/airman/sailor should aspire to.

 

Go get yourself a slot Jag, you've got my vote.

 

 

Also, don't fret turning down the FBI gig, my uncle did as well, was scouted by the FBI personally. (Is that FBI SOP?) However, his buddy (whom I'm close with) didn't.

 

Guess who is still married, taking vacations, has time to spend with his boys, etc...

[jag32]

Jag, get an LOR from your Battalion Commander, your Company Commander and one from a senior NATOPs instructor and one of the USMC squadrons you have a good relationship with, or a senior Army WO aviator if you have access You can only have 3 LORs and the USAREC regs tell you exactly who they must be from. Go get your Army flight physical and submit your stuff. The process will either render you a WOC, or give you valuable insight for your follow up application. One of the tragedy's is watching good potential applicants waste valuable time trying to get a favorable/reasonable assurance of success before they apply, without an application in front of the next board it's 100% you won't get selected. Get er' done! Mike-

Stearmann, i've spent this week securing all of the requisite LORs including more than what is required, to include a NATOPs FA18/MV22 instructor as well as a CW4 Army Aviator. I've already scheduled my flight physical at the Naval Aviation Medical Center aboard MCAS Cherry Point and either tomorrow or this weekend will be submitting for that streamlined waiver process where I should have a decision within two weeks.

[jag32]

Jag, obviously you have the creditials that the WOFT program is looking for. As Mike said it would appear to be a loss for the Army not to have you on board. I would hope they would examine your NJP and realize you had no connection to said incident. Like to know what kind of commander issues a blanket NJP for a roll over. We had one in OIF 2 where the driver fell asleep and no one was punished. Price of war.

 

Good to hear your conditional release went smoothly. Mine didn't. First, the CoC wasnt please that I was "jumping ship" from an MOS (ATC) that needed people desperately. Then you get the usual snide remarks of "why you wanna go and join the Army for? You're a Marine." This usually comes from people who are envious because they didn't realize they could fly without a commission and now they don't have the time or credentials to get accepted. It was really a bad last few months for me in the Marines. While most of my friends thought it was awesome that I was going after my dream, some looked at me like some kind of trader. Needless to say my end of service award wasn't very good. On a side note, with your degrees and Marine experience I'm curious as to why you wouldn't apply to Marine AOCS? We do have the best helicopters and pilots in the Army but I was just wondering.

 

Good luck to ya. You got a good start going but you still have some work to do. Gotta get that SIFT thing done and a few more administrative details. Oh yeah get your flight phys done from an Army Doc and not a Navy one. Will definitely speed up the acceptance process at Rucker. Should have a real competitive packet when your done though.

 

Velocity, thanks for the advice. I was afraid my conditional release would be a painful process and I would go through the same thing you had to endure, and when you said it was bad for you the last few months in the Marines, trust me brother, I completely understand what you mean by that. The reason I don't want to apply to Marine OCS and become a Marine aviator is because I have had unique exposure to Marine aviation by virtue of my current job and have worked with C2 elements at the higher level commands and have not liked what I saw in regards to the employment of Marine aviation. I don't want to go through all of the pain to become a Marine officer and graduate flight school only to do likely one deployment as a pilot and then come back and be the S3 or hold some other command billet. As a Marine aviator, you are a Marine officer first and an aviator second. Most Marine aviators rarely see a cockpit after one deployment as a pilot and fall into roles such as being a FAC or JTAC on future deployments, with later positions as operations officers, etc. From conversations with current Army aviators, there are similar collateral duties, etc., however it is not to the level of being taken completely out of the cockpit like what is experienced in the Marine Corps.

Good advice on getting my flight physical done through an Army doctor rather than the Navy. I will work on that ASAP, hopefully it is something I can arrange myself and will not have to go through a recruiter for.

[jag32]

You'll be getting close to the FBI age limit if you go through with the WOFT option. You'll need to graduate flight school before turning 31. You can expect that to happen between 1.5-2 years after you show up for WOCS. So I'd say if you're not selected within the next year you should start thinking about it in terms of which one you'd prefer, because you probably can't do both. The FBI has a pretty good helicopter unit too as I'm sure you know. It's a lot more competitive to get in but it's a much better position than being an Army pilot imo.

 

d10, that is certainly in the back of my mind. I've had a unique career in the military thus far and have unfortunately lost a lot of friends during OEF. I began my career in the Marine Corps infantry and saw far too many fellow Marines lose their lives, ultimately leading me to apply for and be accepted into the counterintelligence field where I was able to have a direct impact on finding IEDs, finding the enemy, identifying threats inside the wire, and protecting the Marines I was responsible for from threats they could not begin to conceive of. While the counterintelligence field has many preconceived notions about what it is and what the job actually consists of- we employ many advanced techniques and do things far beyond the scope of a traditional Marine, however at the end of the day the purpose for all of the activities we conduct is to safeguard that basic infantry Marine on patrol in Afghanistan and to give him the best fighting chance of returning home alive. I am a regular board member on screening, assessment, and selection boards into the counterintelligence field and we get a lot of remarkable candidates, however the motivations of the candidates are ultimately what gets them through the process and past the board. Are they doing it because they think its a cool and sexy job? Or are they doing it because they have seen far too many of their buddies end up as double amps or dead and they want to proactively do something about it? I believe it is the same for Army aviation and any other tactical-level aviation platforms within the U.S. military, such as aviation employment within a Marine Expeditionary Unit. Yeah, flying helicopters is certainly a cool job, but do most of the candidates on here applying actually understand at the fundamental level why they want to fly those helicopters? I want to fly the AH-64, yes obviously because it is a sexy attractive platform, however above all of that that is that it is the platform I believe will enable me to best support the basic 11B and it will give me the ability to kill the IED triggerman hiding behind a compound before that triggerman is able to kill a few 11Bs. I will never lose that connection to the basic rifleman-Marine, soldier, or otherwise-and the job I do in the military is one where direct support to the preservation of their lives is at the forefront of my mind. These reasons I just talked about are ultimately why I can honestly turn down offers to be an FBI Special Agent or a U.S. Diplomat, while each position is certainly noble in their own right, I believe they are inherently self serving, not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just i'm not ready for that yet.

[UnitedWeStand111]

:Applause:

[jag32]

Question about LORs. I keep seeing that active duty guys need to have an LOR from their company commander and battalion commander. Is this for active duty enlisted Army soldiers who are applying for WOFT, or for everyone on active duty applying, even those who are coming from other branches like myself? I have a LOR from my company commander, but I do not have one from my battalion commander. He is forward in OEF right now and there is no way to get an LOR from him. Do I absolutely need that LOR from my battalion commander, or will my package be fine without it? I was also able to obtain a LOR from an outstanding senior CW5 UH-60 pilot. So right now I plan to submit LORs from:

 

1) Company commander (Marine captain)

2) Army CW5 UH-60 pilot

3) Marine Major FA18/MV-22 pilot

4) Marine Major S2 Intelligence Officer

5) Air Force Lieutenant General who knows me personally (Retired pilot)

6) My CFI, who is a Navy Lieutenant (O-3)

 

Do need that battalion commander LOR? Because at least for the next 6 months it's not going to happen. My battalion XO is forward deployed as well, highest ranking guy back here is my company commander, a captain.

[Optamix]

Im not sure but I do know that your LORs have to be on the DA form, my packet got kicked back because two of mine were on Air Force letter head(my CO/CC). They will accept them non digitally signed from other branches though since we don't have the software program to digitally sign.

[Optamix]

If you have to have the Battalion Commander I would write my own LOR, route to your supervisor for revisions, route to your Superintendent(or Marine E-7/E-8 equivalent) for review and he can route it to your CO then to your Battalion CC via email for signature. May take awhile but if it shows up in his in box already perfect from your CO it's quick to sign it and send it back.

[AVIATORWANNABE]

Jag32

You say you are active duty military and you cannot get a LOR from your BC?

My suggestion: fill out the LOR write up bullets and send to your CC via Outlook. Or even your AKO. Update your CC and ask him to send to your BC (chain of command)

Are these not options? And Battalion level officer should have connection to email.

[AVIATORWANNABE]

And I just read Optamix response lol.