IFR CLEARED UP...

[pilotguy933]

CFII's tell me if I have this correct:

 

In a helicopter if weather is CIG less than 1000 and ViS less than 3sm we need to file IFR...

 

Then..

 

an alternate airport is required if:

-at ETA +1 HR, CIG is LESS THAN 1000ft AGL or LESS THAN 400 ft above the lowest approach minimum, or VIS is less than 2sm = WE NEED AN ALTERNATE

 

If we need an alternate airport, to be able to file that aiport as an alternate weather at the time of arrival must be:

200 ft above the minimum approach to be flown, VIS at least 1sm but not less than minimum for the approach to be flown.

 

HOWEVER:

 

If the approach contains an "A" in the approach, alternate minimums apply and weather at the time of arrival must meet these minimums.

 

Is this right or do I have this all wrong. If I do, would someone please break this down for me kind of like I did (but correctly HA HA) Thanks for any information and all your help. I know you can find this in part 91.167 - 91.171 but it seems messy to me.

 

Thanks for any help. It is much appreciated.

 

PG

[d10]

You can still fly VFR below 1000/3 if the airport isn't in controlled airspace. You can also request special VFRif you are in controlled airspace. Other than that it sounds like you have it right.

[Trans Lift]

IFR cleared up....isn't that VFR

[ridethisbike]

The only thing you missed was the 1 hour before ETA to 1 hour after ETA for the alternate.

 

This is what helped me remember is (1142, 1121)

 

ETA + 1 hour

1000' celing

400' above lowest approach (don't forget, it's whichever one is higher)

2 SM vis

 

And...

 

1 hour before ETA*

1 hour after ETA*

200' ceiling above planned approach

1 SM vis, but not less than required for the approach

 

* This isn't regulatory. It's what we were taught as "best practices."

[C of G]

I don't believe the alternate required for helicopters is ETA +/- 1 hour. I think it's just at the ETA.

[Counterrotate]

Sec. 91.169 — IFR flight plan: Information required.

 

(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing an IFR flight plan must include in it the following information:

(1) Information required under §91.153 (a) of this part;

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (b ) of this section, an alternate airport.

(b ) Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not apply if :

(1) Part 97 of this chapter prescribes a standard instrument approach procedure to, or a special instrument approach procedure has been issued by the Administrator to the operator for, the first airport of intended landing; and

(2) Appropriate weather reports or weather forecasts, or a combination of them, indicate the following:

(i) For aircraft other than helicopters. For at least 1 hour before and for 1 hour after the estimated time of arrival, the ceiling will be at least 2,000 feet above the airport elevation and the visibility will be at least 3 statute miles.

(ii) For helicopters. At the estimated time of arrival and for 1 hour after the estimated time of arrival, the ceiling will be at least 1,000 feet above the airport elevation, or at least 400 feet above the lowest applicable approach minima, whichever is higher, and the visibility will be at least 2 statute miles.

[Counterrotate]

The real issue at hand is the initial statement that if weather is cig less than 1000, 3SM you need to file IFR. This is not necessarily the case. As has been pointed out, if departing from controlled airspace, you may request an SVFR clearance. Departing the area, if the flight is to be conducted in class G airspace, you can operate clear of clouds at a speed and altitude at which you can see and avoid aircraft or obstacles. In class E you need to maintain weather minimums.

[C of G]

In class E you need to maintain weather minimums.

 

What about E to the surface, like for an ILS extension? Can you operate SVFR there?

 

 

Also, I think the op didn't state it specifically, but I think he's asking only about IFR destination and subsequent alternate requirements, not just operating at below basic VFR minimums. I'm guessing he's working on his instrument ticket.

 

I stand to be corrected, as always...

[Counterrotate]

SVFR CAN be granted within the surface boundaries of class E airspace unless designated a "No SVFR" for that particular airport.

 

Sorry I forgot to add that part. I too stand to be corrected. My brain is like a sponge: It can only hold so much information before it just dumps the excess out the bottom...

[C of G]

SVFR CAN be granted within the surface boundaries of class E airspace unless designated a "No SVFR" for that particular airport.

 

I just figured I'd toss a question out to get some gears spinning. You answered too quickly.

 

I like to ask SVFR questions on checkrides. Typically I'll ask the max altitude you can leave a D at SVFR.

 

Say you're flying out of Stennis on a 230deg course. The clearance is usually "Cleared out of the D surface area at or below 2500. Maintian SVFR until clear of controlled airspace."

 

It's interesting the answers I'll get.

 

 

 

 

Oooooh, I just noticed the "NO SVFR" that you mentioned. Does that apply to helicopters?

Edited February 25, 2013 by C of G

[Counterrotate]

I just figured I'd toss a question out to get some gears spinning. You answered too quickly.

 

I like to ask SVFR questions on checkrides. Typically I'll ask the max altitude you can leave a D at SVFR.

 

Say you're flying out of Stennis on a 230deg course. The clearance is usually "Cleared out of the D surface area at or below 2500. Maintian SVFR until clear of controlled airspace."

 

It's interesting the answers I'll get.

 

 

 

 

 

Oooooh, I just noticed the "NO SVFR" that you mentioned. Does that apply to helicopters?

 

Ah. I'll play your little game... Does it? (I just found the answer, but will let someone else take a crack at it this time).

[Velocity173]

 

 

I just figured I'd toss a question out to get some gears spinning. You answered too quickly.

 

I like to ask SVFR questions on checkrides. Typically I'll ask the max altitude you can leave a D at SVFR.

 

Say you're flying out of Stennis on a 230deg course. The clearance is usually "Cleared out of the D surface area at or below 2500. Maintian SVFR until clear of controlled airspace."

 

It's interesting the answers I'll get.

 

 

 

 

 

Oooooh, I just noticed the "NO SVFR" that you mentioned. Does that apply to helicopters?

 

Depart at 600 ft agl. No "No SVFR" doesn't apply to helos.

[C of G]

600? How do you come up with that?

[ridethisbike]

I don't believe the alternate required for helicopters is ETA +/- 1 hour. I think it's just at the ETA.

 

Yep. You're right and I edited my post to hopefully not add confusion. I have that 1121 everywhere in my notes. It was taught to us as "best practice" during planning. I guess I just read it so much in my notes that it stuck in there as regulatory.

[ridethisbike]

600? How do you come up with that?

 

I think that's just to be under E and in the Below 1200' AGL G weather minimums (clear of clouds. see and avoid)

[C of G]

I think that's just to be under E in the Below 1200' AGL G weather minimums (clear of clouds. see and avoid)

 

Is that where E starts in that area? If so, why be that far under the floor? 500 below the clouds?

 

 

I should have given the conditions for a SVFR request anyway.

 

 

Let's say ATIS says ovc 1100 vis 2 miles blah blah blah...

Edited February 25, 2013 by C of G

[ridethisbike]

Well you'll be in the low G anyways, but no, it starts at 700' in that area.

 

Why do I feel like I'm in a check ride right now?

[Counterrotate]

I think that's just to be under E and in the Below 1200' AGL G weather minimums (clear of clouds. see and avoid)

 

First off, you are getting your G mixed up with your E. Second off, I thought we were talking about the portion of E that extends to the surface for non controlled fields with instrument approaches?

[ridethisbike]

First off, you are getting your G mixed up with your E. Second off, I thought we were talking about the portion of E that extends to the surface for non controlled fields with instrument approaches?

 

I beg to differ on me getting them mixed up. I know exactly what all the minimums are. I think you're misunderstanding something I said.

 

We were talking about all things SVFR. It just happened to turn into an impromptu check ride. These things happen... haha

 

 

I think the mix up is in the way I worded my answer. I meant you'd be in low G if you departed the D airspace at 600'. Which puts you in the below 1200' G. And that altitude of 600' puts you below the 700' floor of E surrounding that airport

[Velocity173]

600? How do you come up with that?

 

Well not that the ATIS observation applies to the E transition area but it isn't magically going to get better once you leave the D. So, at 600 AGL I"ll be 100 ft below the E transition which would require 3 miles flight vis and BCC. At 600 AGL all I need is CoC. Since pretty much no one flys AGL, I'd say a safe altitude to depart that airport would be 700 msl or 700 agl if I had terrain following radar.

[pilot#476398]

I just figured I'd toss a question out to get some gears spinning. You answered too quickly.

 

I like to ask SVFR questions on checkrides. Typically I'll ask the max altitude you can leave a D at SVFR.

 

Say you're flying out of Stennis on a 230deg course. The clearance is usually "Cleared out of the D surface area at or below 2500. Maintian SVFR until clear of controlled airspace."

 

It's interesting the answers I'll get.

 

 

Well if they told you "at or below 2500" then I'm guessing that the max altitude you can leave this class D SVFR is 2500?

 

Am I correct teacher?

[Velocity173]

 

 

Well if they told you "at or below 2500" then I'm guessing that the max altitude you can leave this class D SVFR is 2500?

 

Am I correct teacher?

 

It's overcast at 1,100 ft???

[pilotguy933]

C of G is right, I am working on my instrument ticket. however, i am already instrument rated in airplanes and was just having a bit of trouble getting the heli world lined out. I posted the thread (albeit not specifically enough), simply in reference to flight planning and the neccessity of that flight plan and an alternate airport. It looks as though SVFR is much more interesting!! thanks for the help, after this Friday, I'm putting the Foggles away for GOOD!

 

Thanks Guys.

 

PG

[C of G]

First off, you are getting your G mixed up with your E. Second off, I thought we were talking about the portion of E that extends to the surface for non controlled fields with instrument approaches?

 

Yeah, sorry. I asked in one about E to the surface if you can get SVFR there. The answer was correctly, and quickly stated as yes.

 

A follow up was the max altitude you could leave a D SVFR with 1100ovc ans 2sm vis.

 

I'd agree on the 700 max because of the floor of E. 600 was a conservative answer so as not to bust it. I'll buy that, too.

[C of G]

In fairness to Pilot#476398, I did omit the wx report that required the SVFR request in the first post I made. Certainly there are scenarios that an airfield could be IFR and a pilot not even need a SVFR clearance. An antique examiner used to always enjoy that scenario. Not withstanding that, it always helps to ask more questions to help qualify your answer.

 

 

Take a simple question like "What does a helicopter pilot do in the event of an engine failure?" Without any further qualifiers, there are too many scenarios to give an accurate answer with just the question as it was asked.

 

 

 

So......

 

Lets say you are departing BTR. METAR says 230/11 2sm hz few 004 sct 017 ovc060...

 

You agan want to depart to the southwest, get a SVFR clearance that says cleared out of the C. Maintain SVFR at or below 4100...

 

Can you hop above the 700 echo ring, say 1500' and cross into the Charlie outer ring SVFR on your way out? Of course we would get below 1200 beyond that to stay in G.