ridethisbike Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'd say you could, but I wouldn't recommend it. You'd be struggling to dodge the clouds and being almost 1/4 mile up, your horizontal visibility would be questionable and your eyes may not be able to focus. I would still depart the area below 700'. It'll be a lot easier to dodge FEW than it would SCT. So. Non-towered E to the surface. Who would I get SVFR clearance from? Center? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) I can see your logic on that. I was really asking about the regs for SVFR in the outer ring. If that is an option.... As for the E non towered... I'd check the chart for a freq or the AFD. Could be center, or approach or another nearby controlling agency. Edited February 25, 2013 by C of G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 It's overcast at 1,100 ft??? If its OVC at 1100' and I'm requesting SVFR, then why would ATC tell me to remain at or below 2500'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 If its OVC at 1100' and I'm requesting SVFR, then why would ATC tell me to remain at or below 2500'? It's the upper limit of the D airspace in this instance so it's would be the standard clearance that they'll give. It's up to the pilot to comply with the clearance and applicable regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 It's the upper limit of the D airspace in this instance so it's would be the standard clearance that they'll give. It's up to the pilot to comply with the clearance and applicable regs. Seems odd that they would do it that way, especially when I'm asking for "special" clearance, not a "standard" one, but oh' well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d10 Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't know about any restrictions using the shelf airspace but there's no class G bordering the shelf at any point, so you might have a hard time getting back to legal VFR when you exit the class C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 § 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in § 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity173 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 If its OVC at 1100' and I'm requesting SVFR, then why would ATC tell me to remain at or below 2500'? The altitude assignment is issued by approach and relayed to the tower. This assignment is given to provide at least 500 ft separation below any IFR traffic. If it's fixed wing the altitude must comply with the MSA in 91.119. I did ATC for 8 yrs so I issued quite a few SVFR clearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Counterrotate Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Just gotta say, this is an awesome thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 The altitude assignment is issued by approach and relayed to the tower. This assignment is given to provide at least 500 ft separation below any IFR traffic. If it's fixed wing the altitude must comply with the MSA in 91.119. I did ATC for 8 yrs so I issued quite a few SVFR clearances. That's cool. Since it was SVFR I guess I was expecting more like; "proceed as requested, maintain VFR at or below 1000", or something? Anyway, SVFR sucks balls! I got it once, and couldn't see sh*t! Definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone who can't go IFR,...and especially an R22! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d10 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 The decision to go SVFR should be an informed judgment call just like anything else. It makes a lot of sense to request it returning to your home airfield where a local 900' ceiling/10+ sm developed. It makes no sense to request it when it's 500/1 at an unfamiliar airfeild but you want to take off anyway because the next stop on your long cross country trip is home. Somewhere in between is where you earn your paycheck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Anyway, SVFR sucks balls! I got it once, and couldn't see sh*t! Definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone who can't go IFR,...and especially an R22! I would respectfully disagree. It is a tool that can really assist in getting the job done. As a primary instructor I tried my hardest to get each of my students a SVFR flight. Even if the wx was not conducive to any other flying, I would get them to depart and then return to our home airport SVFR. I wanted to remove the mystery of it. To this day it stings a little if the atis reports 6m bkn090 and a pilot wants to depart VFR. In most instances the ATIS doesn't state specifically that the airport is IFR. When the controller then has to state "Airfield is IFR. State your intentions." I often hear something to the effect of "I just want to go out to the southeast, blah blah blah..." only to hear the controller say "The airfield is IFR. State your intentions..." I always want to say "I intend to retire young and rich!" Either way, I'm not getting out of there unless I ask for that SVFR clearance. I'm not saying you should go around in an unfamiliar area at 1/4sm, but there are a lot of different scenarios where SVFR is a useful tool. I would venture to say I've gotten a SVFR clearance in every type of heli I've flown, and it's never been pushing weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity173 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 That's cool. Since it was SVFR I guess I was expecting more like; "proceed as requested, maintain VFR at or below 1000", or something? Anyway, SVFR sucks balls! I got it once, and couldn't see sh*t! Definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone who can't go IFR,...and especially an R22! Well it kinda depends on pilot experience and familiarity in the area. As C of G said it can be a valuable tool. At the speeds we fly and the ability to land or simply bring it to a hover, gives us helo guys flexibility. In Afghanistan we would get SVFR every now and then for smog in Kabul, or for blowing dust in Bagram. Only real issue is in multi ship where you can lose sight of lead. Still, you run the risk of IIMC so you better be prepared to excecute an IAP you go in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 § 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums. (a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in § 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport. Man.... I looked at the reg before I posted and my eyes glazed right over that part. At least my logical approach kept me legal... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 To this day it stings a little if the atis reports 6m bkn090 and a pilot wants to depart VFR. Not really! However, 6m and bkn009,...maybe? In my experience though, the visibility is never that good when the ceiling is less than 1000. I guess it just depends on where you fly?,...and why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Not really! However, 6m and bkn009,...maybe? In my experience though, the visibility is never that good when the ceiling is less than 1000. I guess it just depends on where you fly?,...and why! What I meant, was that some pilots don't pick up on the need to make the request. That part hurts my ears. As for the rest... the scenarios are varied, so to say you wouldn't go SVFR unless you are ready to go IFR won't always apply. And to say SVFR "Sucks balls", just shows a lack of experience with it. Maybe the conditions you chose to fly in that day "sucked balls" but the SVFR had nothing to do with it, other than allowing you (AFIK) to do it legally or even at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Man.... I looked at the reg before I posted and my eyes glazed right over that part. At least my logical approach kept me legal...I applaud you for even answering the questions. Too often people will sit quietly when asked so as not to appear stupid or whatever. I know the questions I have gotten wrong (tests or whatever) have always made me learn the info at a deeper level or made me go back and look into it. Or at the very least, I will remember the questions I got wrong more than the ones I got right. So, again, thanks for answering. And, yes, you have a logical, conservative outlook, which should not only keep you legal, it will keep you alive! Edited February 26, 2013 by C of G 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Maybe the conditions you chose to fly in that day "sucked balls" but the SVFR had nothing to do with it, other than allowing you (AFIK) to do it legally or even at all. SVFR allowed me to takeoff when I probably shouldn't have, so I wouldn't say it had "nothing" to do with it! Sure SVFR is a tool that some can use effectively, but there's also that possibility that some private owner will use it to takeoff when he really shouldn't because he wants to get his family home, but instead he gets into IIMC, crashes and kills everybody! Which is another reason why I would never recommend SVFR to anyone who doesn't have the capability of going IFR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) SVFR allowed me to takeoff when I probably shouldn't have, so I wouldn't say it had "nothing" to do with it! Sure SVFR is a tool that some can use effectively, but there's also that possibility that some private owner will use it to takeoff when he really shouldn't because he wants to get his family home, but instead he gets into IIMC, crashes and kills everybody! Which is another reason why I would never recommend SVFR to anyone who doesn't have the capability of going IFR! Guns kill people and the spoon made Rosie O'Donnell fat. I see where you're coming from. If a private owner, or anyone else for that matter, chooses to take off in conditions less than they can handle, it has nothing to do with the reg they accomplished that under. That is poor decision making. By your logic, you should never fly in Class G airspace. A helicopter may be operated clear of clouds if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision. Out of curiosity, are you a CFI? Edited February 26, 2013 by C of G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 I applaud you for even answering the questions. Too often people will sit quietly when asked so as not to appear stupid or whatever. I know the questions I have gotten wrong (tests or whatever) have always made me learn the info at a deeper level or made me go back and look into it. Or at the very least, I will remember the questions I got wrong more than the ones I got right. So, again, thanks for answering. And, yes, you have a logical, conservative outlook, which should not only keep you legal, it will keep you alive! Thank you for posting questions such as these to get people thinking. I enjoy being challenged mentally like that and having to piece things together or go do more research. I'm right there with you about getting things wrong and then looking into them more deeply. It's part of what keeps me going. Nothing would be as much fun if there wasn't a challenge. I just hope threads like this one don't die off. I'd love to see more questions posted up like these. If there are, you can bet your last dollar I'll be participating in them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Guns kill people and the spoon made Rosie O'Donnell fat. I see where you're coming from. If a private owner, or anyone else for that matter, chooses to take off in conditions less than they can handle, it has nothing to do with the reg they accomplished that under. That is poor decision making. By your logic, you should never fly in Class G airspace. A helicopter may be operated clear of clouds if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision. Out of curiosity, are you a CFI? I would never recommend that a pilot flying a helicopter which cannot go IFR fly in weather that is so bad he uses that "clear of clouds" rule! If you're looking outside and thinking, well I only have to remain clear of clouds so I'll go ahead and take my little Robbie up, then your at the beginning of a very bad decision chain! I suppose I can understand how you would be more willing to takeoff when the weather is bad enough that you have to request SVFR (in Florida, where its flat as a pancake) but for me, if the tower says their going IFR, I'm just going to park my little Robbie and fly when it clears! No, I'm not a CFI. Why do you ask? Would I be more willing to take these risks if I was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C of G Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 No, I'm not a CFI. Why do you ask? Would I be more willing to take these risks if I was? Just trying to get a perspective on where you're coming from. When you said you would never recommend SVFR to anyone who isn't prepared to go IFR, I was just checking to see if that was info being passed on the people you were training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Counterrotate Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Not really! However, 6m and bkn009,...maybe? In my experience though, the visibility is never that good when the ceiling is less than 1000. I guess it just depends on where you fly?,...and why! Huh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Just trying to get a perspective on where you're coming from. When you said you would never recommend SVFR to anyone who isn't prepared to go IFR, I was just checking to see if that was info being passed on the people you were training. I'm just a guy who has been to close to clouds to many times, and has thus raised his personal minimums and advice! Take it, or leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Huh. I just figured it was a typo when he said 6m and bkn090? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.