Rescue Line Question ?

[Jople]

Can you tell me what the situation is, when a rescue swimmer on the line is at sea level and the

line would extend under and across to the opposite side of the helicopter.

How do you deal with that ?

Also;

I just emailed Textron concerning;. . Pilot Simulators, are not programmed for the incident of, "line swing" or "Pendulum effect", is there anyone supporting R&D in this field. I am a free lance designer in SAR development, and would really like to know, also there is no requirement for incident reporting for helicopter pilots, that's a big no-no ! How important is that to you, to me it can not mean anything other than the difference between life and death.

[avbug]

Incident reporting to whom, and for what?

 

Requirement? You'll need to be more specific.

 

Certain events have mandatory reports (missing/overdue aircraft, accidents, etc).

 

The ASRS system is available for reporting on an ongoing basis, and is heavily utilized.

 

I don't understand your reference to life and death.

 

A big "no-no?"

[Jople]

Sorry my friend,

the last thing I want to do is seem disrespectful of pilots, that comment was left over from a forum I

said the same thing and the members were executive types from the Helitech group in Linked in.

 

Anyway what I mean about technical improvement people in the field are to make, without information that concerns incident reporting, that to me is the difference between a development that can "save lives", it is necessary because without the info there is hardly anyway for the people who want to assist and improve to do so.

 

In this case, the reference here is, . .

I was informed that the incidents of, not easy to control and sometimes unexpected, "line swing",

is not reported, others say in occurs rarely, I don't think there is a way to tell without an official report from the pilots. I myself have seen more than one, "line swing", caught on camera, so I am of the opinion there are a few out there.

 

Please forgive any irresponsibility on my part for that comment, . .

 

"God Speed to You Pilots"

 

I'll be back with further comment on the details of the needs, I perceive on the helicopter question.

 

.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Jople

[Goldy]

I only know second hand about rescue swimmers, mostly from buying drinks with a USCG pilot while she told me of a typical operation! Usually they deploy without any line attachment. In heavy seas the decision may be to deploy with a line attached. Currents could cause the swimmer to drift under or past the helo....in that case the pilot gets instructions as to which way to move to either winch the swimmer up or put him into better position.

 

I really don't perceive a major safety threat doing this kind of a rescue operation....at least no more than any other rescue hoist operation.

.

[ridethisbike]

Why would anyone need to report line swing? I equate that to reporting ALMOST having a bird strike. Unless you actually hit, there's nothing to report. Same thing with line swing, unless something happens, it's not a big deal. The line swings, you deal with it. Simple as that.

 

As far as incident reporting... every company has their own system for that.

 

As for the simulators... truth be told I have absolutely no idea how far in depth they go regarding that particular application. BUT, from what I gather, most of the SAR company's/crews out there use a two person method for controlling the line. The pilot controls the aircraft, and another crew member hangs their head out the side and tells the pilot where to go in order to keep the line straight. No real need to create a SIM program for that, if you ask me. As long as the crew member and the pilot have a clear understanding of the phraseology they use, there shouldn't be any problems.

 

 

Anyone more knowledgeable than I, feel free to correct me on anything I may have gotten wrong.

[Spike]

Is your definition of “line swing” to mean “load oscillation” (an oscillating or swinging external load suspended beneath a hovering helicopter)?

If so, this is a result of over-controlling and poor pilot technique. Poor piloting is only identified through evaluation and eliminated through training. Regardless of the method of line attachment (belly hook or hoist), if not corrected, load upset caused by over-controlling will continue, or increase, due to pendular action. In order for the oscillation to become a “life and death” situation, the extent of over-controlling would be in the realm of negligent operations.

A pilot corrects “oscillations” by positioning the helicopter above the load at the apex of the swing. Even when the load swings out of sight, the pilot should have a sense of how far to reposition to stop the oscillation. For hoist operations, the hoist operator communicates corrections verbally to the pilot. During vertical reference op’s (pilot looking down vertically), the pilot can see what actions are required to correct the oscillation and consequently makes the appropriate adjustment(s). Oscillation prevention and correction is a required element of any helicopter external load operation.

With regards to simulators, in my experience (full motion AS350 simulator), simulators are better suited for procedural scenarios rather than enhancing pilot technique. In short, there is no substitute for the real deal.

Reportable occurrence? No. It’s a phenomenon that requires corrective action just as a million other factors involved when flying helicopters.

[iChris]

I am a free lance designer in SAR development, and would really like to know, also there is no requirement for incident reporting for helicopter pilots, that's a big no-no !

 

There's a requirement for incident reporting: Title 49 CFR 830 PART 830—NOTIFICATION AND REPORTING OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENTS OR INCIDENTS

 

49 CFR 830.2 - Definitions: Incident: means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations.

 

49 CFR 830.5 – Outlines “Incident” notification, when you must notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office.

 

Check CFR 830.5 to see if what you saw should have been reported.

 

You can query the accident database for incident reports by selecting Investigation Type: Incident, Category: Helicopter, and Operation Type.

Edited March 31, 2013 by iChris

[Jople]

Chris,

It seems that the report concerning, "oscillation" which I have referred to as, the "Pendulum effect",

or "line-swing", is at the discretion of the pilot, when it comes to incident reporting.

 

My concern is in the development of avionics to solve the problem.

 

The following is an explanation that concern one of the present day. "seat of the pants" solutions as explained by one pilot.

 

 

Subject: Re: Pendulum

Whenever a helicopter pilot has an external load that starts to swing (Human or non-human cargo), he will begin to slowly turn and the swinging will cease.

Initiating a shallow turn will remedy the pendulum effect by decreasing the ability for the load to swing by using centrifugal force. Even at a slow forward speed with a shallow turn to one direction, it will create a G Force on the weight, increasing the relative weight on the end of the rope and diminishing the swing.

My concern from viewing one of the televised documentaries, (prior to 2009), is that in some situation the pilot does not have the time or space to always make the correction.

I will be glad to follow through with further comment concerning the other replies here asap.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Jople

[ridethisbike]

I can't help but feel like you're trying to create a solution to a problem that doesn't truly exist. The swing would have to be pretty extreme to create a hazard. If a pilot has that little control over his load, he has no business conducting such operations and likely won't be conducting such operations until he becomes more proficient with the line.

[iChris]

 

My concern is in the development of avionics to solve the problem.

My concern from viewing one of the televised documentaries, (prior to 2009), is that in some situation the pilot does not have the time or space to always make the correction.

 

Done… We already have Automatic Flight Control and Stability Augmentation systems in place like the automatic transition to hover and stabilization systems, in the UH-60 and HH-65 (Dolphin).

 

These systems provide automatic flight control. At the pilot's direction the system will bring the aircraft to a stable hover above a selected object. This is an important safety feature over water, at night or inclement weather.

 

We have an Unmanned K-Max project flying external loads around without any abnormal swing. Stable flight control inputs and stable hovering; notwithstanding any adverse load aerodynamics, translates into a stable external load.

 

On the commercial end, day VFR operations can normally be completed safely without any additional flight control avionics and without any unwanted swing. Training and good pilot/crew coordination is key. Pilots trained in vertical reference can also safely complete the task.

 

Well-trained pilot/crew teams and vertical reference pilots don’t seem to have much if any problems handling “Pendulum effect" or "line-swing" issues.

 

Over the years much research and wind tunnel testing has gone into this effort and the following are a few of those projects:

 

CIFER - Externally Slung Loads - Ames Research Center, Moffett Field

Flight-control - Externally Slung Loads ... Ames Research Center, Moffett Field

Rotorcraft with Externally Slung Loads ... Ames Research Center, Moffett Field

Automatic Flight Control System

Edited March 31, 2013 by iChris

[ridethisbike]

Although, I didn't know about some of the stuff Chris just mentioned...

[Jople]

First I am not trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, . .

I am fact finding zero tolerances for error.

 

Secondly I am not trying to be a know-it-all, but the growing needs for SAR and ER will become more complex, in all dimensions.

 

If you think that there is enough time to correct "swing" in hazard area,

fine, . . I will look into the reference for the solutions as you have made reference, etc.

 

The following graphic is only to illustrate the situation as it, has, can and will occur.

 

 

 

 

I am talking 1-3 SECONDS AUTOMATED CORRECTION WINDOW.

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

The following is a discussion, Jan. 2013

 

Edited April 10, 2013 by Jople

[Airhead]

Jople, did you make that animation for this post? That's cool. Are you looking for a solution in the simulator or in the real world?

 

Outside of a simulator this has to do with the stick control of the aircraft and the laws of physics. To me, it does not appear to be something you can engineer away. Even if you could figure it out it would be expensive and would add unwanted weight. In order to suppress the oscillation, wouldn't the point that the line attaches to the aircraft have to move or an appendage to act as a movable fulcrum somewhere down the line. The amount of movement would have to be pretty large, almost as large as the oscillation. Since you want it to respond faster then the pilot the controls required would have to be significant...like a computer with a camera, maybe a gyro, and the associated software plus the motors or hydraulics to move the wire.

 

This is opposed to moving the entire aircraft and training its operators (or autopilot) which is the current solution. That's where the simulator could be useful, to enhance the pilot and keep the extra gear off the aircraft.

 

My .02

[Jople]

Yep, I did the graphics, to illustrate the incident as seen in a documentary years ago, etc.

 

I think Expensive will be what it is, but I don't think that should prevent the inevitable improvement, as envisioned.

 

Before I make any definite promises, I am taking my concept to an aero-engineer, etc.

 

but I'm still talking 1-3 second electro-mechanical control and or prevention.

 

Thanks for your reply and thanks to all others, there is ample information to keep me busy, . . much appreciated.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Jople

[Jople]

I will continue this conversation in hopefully a more technical nature, . in the

 

Aerodynamics, Mechanics, or other... forum Discussions

 

as Rescue Line Pendulum Effect.