mfh Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I have an R-44 that needs to go from East Troy, WI to Calexico, CA. $200/hr plus fuel with a CFI. The trip is about 20 hours. 321-368-1549 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I'm available. I charge $20 a flight hour plus fuel and travel expenses. Also, I don't require a CFI to tag along. PM if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I bet that $20 p/h is probably negotiable too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 As long as fuel and travel expenses are covered I suppose I could just settle on the 20 hours of flight time as compensation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Darn, you under bid me. I'd need the CFI to get my SFAR up to date before I left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 SFAR?…. dude….. don't look back man… don't look back! You'll be lost in an R22 trying to find the second engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Shhhhhh We don't tell students they have two.... Â That way we never have to explain the both position on the key! Â Pilot#, Ill SIC for ya.... That way we can offer a dual CFI ferry service, and I dont need a hotel, a tent will do, but fo sho some good food along the way. Make sure the route is set by way of good diners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) I have an R-44 that needs to go from East Troy, WI to Calexico, CA. $200/hr plus fuel with a CFI. The trip is about 20 hours. 321-368-1549Yeah, I would charge $200 a day plus expenses, and the CFI is just extra weight I don't need. I wonder about these ferries sometimes....who the hell would want to go from Wisconsin to Calexico? I was born in Wisconsin....not a lot of hispanics there.....and I've been to Calexico...not a lot of Cheeseheads there either! BTW- I'm a big fan of time building pilots using ferry flights for some real experience....but $200 an hour PLUS fuel? Might be a bit steep compared to some other opportunities. Edited February 16, 2014 by Goldy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I guess I did this all wrong with the 55 pilots that moved helos (B206LIII, B407 & EC120) across the country with me. I sometimes charged my Instructor fee, $100/hr, aircraft time was FREE and I picked up meals and hotels en route. An old dog must learn new tricks? NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280fxColorado Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Hey Mike, how fortunate you were to be in a position where you could offer these valuable flight experiences with no charge for flight time, and even pay yourself handsomely! I don't understand why people go on the attack when offers like this come up. It's simple economics - if you have something I want and I'm willing to pay your price, we have a deal. The surrounding circumstances are mostly irrelevant. Several years ago I was traveling in New Zealand, living in Christchurch for 6 months. Taking RV tours is a popular way to travel the country and the most common route is to fly into Auckland, drive to the South Island, and leave the RV in Christchurch. This leaves an abundance of RVs on the South Island that need to get back to the Auckland base of operations. The RV company offered massive discounts for travelers headed in the opposite direction. I think we paid insurance ($15/day), had to cover our own expenses (gas, food, ferry to the north island), and we had a time limit (10 days max to get it to Auckland). It was an amazing discount over the normal rate ($200/day) and we had a fantastic trip. "But they need to move the machine anyways, how dare they charge for something that must be done...?!" I think you get the point. Not all operators are in a position where they can generously offer charity flights, nor would they want to. Most helicopter businesses operate with slim profit margins and tight time frames. If I have a deadhead flight I can either eat the costs and move on with life or try to find a pilot who could benefit from the experierce and offer them a discounted rate. With this comes the additional effort of providing the service: coordinating travel logistics, providing good customer service, dealing with the challenges/frustrations of letting an inexperienced pilot fly your machine, assuming the additional liability, and wearing the instructor's hat and providing a valuable learning experience. Or I could just crank up my iPod and straight-line solo the deadhead leg and avoid the hassle. The offer is never advertised and nobody gets the discounted flight/learning experience.  If the offer makes sense for the buyer and the seller, why should anyone else complain? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 It's not a bad idea in negotiation to ask for the outrageous to begin with. It leaves more room to negotiate. But if you get too outrageous to start, you run the risk of insulting potential customers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Mike,Just out of curiosity, were you paying to move those helicopters yourself or were you the compensated ferry pilot who then offered up an empty seat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Most ferry pilots I know get paid to ferry the aircraft. As a pilot, its insulting to be asked to pay to do it, as I already paid my dues in full cash out of pocket to gain the two green cards in my wallet. I paid so I could then get paid to fly. I have spent 15+ years in construction. When a job required demo work to be done before the remodel could start.... I got paid to demo, and charged the customer for hauling and dump fees. I often see adds where someone wants a barn taken down, or a tree removed and they are also charging a fee to the worker to do it then claiming they benefit from the material being theirs to keep. I get irritated at these adds, because the guy that has the experience to demo it correctly isn't wanting to work for free, any more than the pilot who is broke does. It seems to be the American way.... Hey if your in debt, lets borrow more money to stay afloat!!!! Lets spend more cash because we haven't figured out its not working!!!! Americans get these lame brain ideas watching congress..... Then figure hey thats a good idea we should do this too!!! and sell it as "experience" for the masses. I have already "experienced" broke....it sucks... Now I would love to try out the term professional pilot, and get paid. Its an odd experience at first I am sure...but I also assume, it might get addicting.  Oh one would hope huh? Edited February 17, 2014 by WolftalonID 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 If I'm getting paid to ferry an aircraft I'm not going to charge some poor desperate lowtimer to sit next to me and do MY job! In fact if he's doing all the work I should give him a cut of my action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bama269-C Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Operators and indivduals have no room calling these flights "ferry flights" when they are requesting a pilot to pay to relocate their aircraft! It is a rental flight plain and simple.Furthermore, using the RV scenario to justify the reasoning in behind charging a pilot to relocate an operators aircraft is popycock! There is one huge difference between people who are vactioning and commercial pilots. Commercial pilots are professionals that dont work for free or pay to work, whereas people vactioning are not professional drivers and are paying for the camping experience. Asking a commercial pilot to pay to relocate your aircraft is like asking a commercial truck driver to pay the transportaion company to deliver their freight to customers. Commercial pilots are not customers of commercial operators.They are working professionals, and if an operator needs someone to relocate their aircraft, then they need to be willing to hire a pilot and pay them to do this service. If they are not, then they can get out from behind their desk and move it themself, or have their secretary relocate it for the company. In my opinion, all professional pilots should refuse to pay an operator to relocate their aircraft. Even if they are offering it at $25.00 an hour! If any one should get $25.00 hour it should be the commercial pilot. Until professional pilots take back contol and stop paying these operators, we will never be looked at as anything other than slave labor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Speaking from experience. They'll probably find some gullible private pilot to take it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280fxColorado Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 A couple things:Â There's a big difference between holding a commercial pilot's certificate and being a "professional pilot." A professional pilot has the required skills, experience, attitude, and qualifications AND has demonstrated the ability to be trusted to get the job done. A fresh commercial pilot has demonstrated the ability to pass a test, holds a piece of plastic, is uninsurable, and unproven. Most new CPLs have a long way to go towards becoming a professional. Â No one is "asking YOU to pay to ferry their aircraft." Many will offer an opportunity to build flight time in their aircraft at a discounted rate. There are many different circumstances in which it makes sense for a pilot to pay to build time - loss of currency, SFAR requirements, insurance requirements, etc. If a pilot needs these hours, they could pay full rate at a flight school or pay a cut rate to build the time elsewhere. What's wrong with offering or taking advantage of the time building scenario? If it doesn't make sense for you, move along. I can assure you, there are plenty of pilots who benefit from and greatly appreciate these kinds of offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) You guys do realize that the person who posted this IS NOT looking for a pilot. He has one who is doing the ferry. Businesses are in business to make money. If a pilot needs to get a helicopter somewhere there is nothing wrong with them charging for someone who may need to go.  There seems to be a theme with some here that those who have are somehow obligated to help those who have not.  The only time I take issue with ferry flight offers is when the offer comes with a list of made up endorsements that some CFI is willing to put in your book that don't mean anything. You end up with some low timer who thinks he scored a list of mountain and night endorsements for his money.  If a helicopter is being moved because of a sale and neither party is excited about the expense of moving it, a business needs to relocate an asset, the mindset seems to be "Well you have to do it anyway, so you should let me come and log the time." Sure, that would be great. But in reality, Flying Pig Aviation isn't in the business of giving you a free ride. Id honestly rather go by myself than risk flying xcty with someone Ive never met. Now, if Im doing it and I actually know you and Im interested in your future? Sure, I have a few people Id call up right now if I had to ferry an aircraft and I wouldn't charge them a dime. But Im probably not going to just toss out "Free Helo ride on me because I feel bad for you….. whoever you are."  In the case of this post….. this isn't someone looking for a poor low timer. He isn't looking for someone to fly it. He has a CFI who is doing that, or the owner himself is doing it. He's offering one of you the chance to go with him and no doubt cut his expense of getting his helicopter from WI to CA. Call him up and negotiate the rate if you think he's gouging you. Then say "If you don't get any takers, my deal stands." Its up to that owner to decide if its worth it.  Someone is paying for that flight. Why should you get to tag along for free? Edited February 17, 2014 by Flying Pig 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) A couple things: There's a big difference between holding a commercial pilot's certificate and being a "professional pilot." A professional pilot has the required skills, experience, attitude, and qualifications AND has demonstrated the ability to be trusted to get the job done. A fresh commercial pilot has demonstrated the ability to pass a test, holds a piece of plastic, is uninsurable, and unproven. Most new CPLs have a long way to go towards becoming a professional.  Its just a ferry flight, dude. Most new CPLs have enough cross country experience to handle it! Edited February 17, 2014 by pilot#476398 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Â Â Someone is paying for that flight. Why should you get to tag along for free? Â ...because I'm doing all the work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Mike,Just out of curiosity, were you paying to move those helicopters yourself or were you the compensated ferry pilot who then offered up an empty seat?FP, It was part of my employment to relocate seasonally and I was able to pick up expenses for those flying with me as I plan for it in an annual budget.  With or without a pilot I was going and never wasted offering that seat to a pilot. Many times we did a make and model + turbine transition in the process. Most pilots took away a factory pilot transition notebook and a lot of experience in planning and flying 2000+ nm x-c. I never get on here and attack those that offer the opportunity but I do personally question the costs of some of these as offered.  What happens if no one decides to go? Does the operator go broke or not move the aircraft? I realize that not everyone is in the position to do what I did but I feel good about having been able to do it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bama269-C Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) A couple things: There's a big difference between holding a commercial pilot's certificate and being a "professional pilot." A professional pilot has the required skills, experience, attitude, and qualifications AND has demonstrated the ability to be trusted to get the job done. A fresh commercial pilot has demonstrated the ability to pass a test, holds a piece of plastic, is uninsurable, and unproven. Most new CPLs have a long way to go towards becoming a professional.   There is no differene between a commercial pilot certificate holder and a "professional pilot". If a " fresh commercial pilot"/ CFI can teach someone to be a pilot with zero experience, I am sure they can do a cross country (ferry). Furtheremore, many of these operators are wanting an R22 or R44 relocated. So, I am sure if these fresh commercial pilots can teach others to fly in an R22 or R44 they can surely relocate these operators aircraft without a problem. I swear it is not like this is a fire fighting or EMS flight. Therefore, you reasoning for charging or taging alone is mute! Moreover, why should some low timer pay for 20 hours of turbine time when these operators advertise it. It is not going to get them a job or benefit them in any way.The only one it benefits is the operators who are to cheap to hire a pilot to fly their aircraft for them. I don't see PHI advertising ferry flights to low timers or to time builders to get their aircraft in during hurricane season. Oh that is right! It is because they pay a pilot on their staff to do it! Edited February 17, 2014 by Bama269-C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Wow, there was some pent up passion regarding ferrying aircraft that has been tapped into. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 It might be a matter of perspective. While the owner or experienced pilot might "have" to fly it somewhere, somebody with low time might "get" the chance to fly it somewhere.... For a fee. When I was starting, getting to fly a 44 was a great treat and I'd practically murder somebody to get to fly a 206B. Now, I "have" to keep current in the 206 and "get" to fly something else. At this point in my career, I wouldn't pay to fly a 44, but if I ever saw a post to ferry an Apache, 139, 412, etc... I might even consider paying for that :-) The OP just needs to find the right person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Everyone on here is talking about paying a professional/commercial pilot. The op is probably looking for a private pilot building time. A ppl needs hours and experience. This is different from the pattern and a little cheaper then flight schools. While it's not the best deal out there, it's not a bad deal for someone either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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