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Logging Experience as Night & NVD


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#1 zVo

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:09

I've got a question I'd like to bounce off you guys --

 

In my civilian logbook, I've created an additional column for NVGs and have been leaving the 'Night' column alone to reflect the difference between night aided and night unaided. However, I'm working towards knocking out my ATP and taking a closer look at how I've been logging my time.

 

Does NVG/NVD time count as "regular night" flying? The FARs don't mention anything about logging NVG/NVD time, but I'm wondering if it's acceptable to log that time as 'Night' since it is "between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight." For anyone that has gone for their ATP or has sought additional ratings (e.g. fixed-wing commercial or ATP), did your NVG time count towards your night requirements?

 

Thanks!

Z


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Genesis 1:2

God is a helicopter pilot.

#2 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:18

In the civilian world you log night and NVG. So if you flew 1.5 on NVGs you also log 1.5 night. Or however long you had your NVGs down.

I have a night column and an NVG column as well. Typically my NVGs are down from lift off to touch down.

Edited by Flying Pig, 19 February 2014 - 09:21.


#3 CharyouTree

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:20

You mean separately, correct FP?



#4 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:23

Yes separately. But any NVG time is also logged as night. So if you have 100hrs of NVG time, that is also 100hrs if night. Double dipping is ok :)

#5 zVo

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:31

Flying Pig,

 

Thanks for the response and clarification! Makes sense. If employers want true 'night unaided,' it'd simply be a difference between night and NVG time.  B)


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Genesis 1:2

God is a helicopter pilot.

#6 CharyouTree

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:49

Yes separately. But any NVG time is also logged as night. So if you have 100hrs of NVG time, that is also 100hrs if night. Double dipping is ok :)

So in the interest of an ATP, if you had, for example: 200 hours of NVG and 30 hours of "unaided" you meet the night requirements?

 

Edit: Further, if a resume with hours as above were to read "230 hours night, 200 hours NVG" would that be considered normal?


Edited by CharyouTree, 19 February 2014 - 10:54.


#7 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:02

Yes that is correct.

In my case I have 620 NVG, 130 unaided night which equals 750 total "night".

I don't actually log unaided. If anyone needs to know simply subtract the "NVG" from the "night" to get your unaided night.

Edited by Flying Pig, 19 February 2014 - 12:20.

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#8 Velocity173

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 13:20

In my personal logbook I don't have seperate night and NVG columns so I log the whole thing as night and put the NVG amount in the remarks. My work logbook (computer) actually differentiates the two and puts a total time at the end.

Most employers want total night time by the FAA's definition and then have it broken down to unaided and NVG. My employer wanted a heavy emphasis on NVGs as well.

#9 Joe_P148

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 14:41

Night unaided is not NVG. It's your logbook and if you are trying to change hours just for the purpose of ATP I could see that. If you were trying to stretch your hours to make mins for a job. I'd say don't carry the hours over as we all know night unaided compared to nvg is two completely different skill sets.

#10 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 15:18

I think you misunderstood the above posts. Nobody ever said unaided was NVG.

NVG is also Night. if you are flying on NVGs you are logging night and NVG at the same time. If you are not flying with NVGs you are just logging night.

Nobody is trying to twist anything. If there is some part of that you personally don't agree with, then that's your call. But don't tell people not to do it based on your personal belief of what it should be. That's not what the person asked. He wanted to know what was legal. As a pilot who operates on NVGs you will have 3 numbers you can give an employer: NVG, Unaided and Night. Each column speaks for itself to anyone who is looking at your qualifications.

Edited by Flying Pig, 19 February 2014 - 15:36.

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#11 Wally

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 15:52

NVG is night flight if it takes place in the period defined as night. I guess you could be training with "pin-hole" lens covers on your goggles in daylight. That's not "night" even tho it might be  NVG, it's not "aided night".

Analogy- I log XC in another column altogether whether it's day or night. For the purpose of a rating, you might have other "XC" categories. But day flight is still day flight and night flight is still night flight, IF.

Exactly why digital log books rule...


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#12 Joe_P148

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 16:28

Agreed!

#13 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 16:33

Was there some confusion?

#14 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 16:33

Sounds good to me. I really didn't anticipate someone flying around during the day with NVGs would actually be logging night beause they had NVGs on. But you never know what people might do.
Nowhere did anyone suggest that NVG time was night in itself. The definition of night doesn't change because you have NVGs on.

But it still is what it is. Log your NVG time as long as it falls within the definition of night. Log your night. The difference will be your unaided. If you are flyin around during the day with NVGs, well..... I can't help you on that one.

Edited by Flying Pig, 19 February 2014 - 17:18.


#15 Wally

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 18:59

I had a medic who would goggle-up in the evening well before twilight. Coming back in the rain one evening he claimed to able to see further through the goggles. Best guess is that the rain on the windscreen was a visual distraction to an unaided eye, or was perhaps outside the goggle's focal depth of field.

Or, he was crazy.


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#16 d10

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 20:21

But it still is what it is. Log your NVG time as long as it falls within the definition of night. Log your night. The difference will be your unaided. If you are flyin around during the day with NVGs, well..... I can't help you on that one.

 

If we're talking about FAA definitions, NVG time during the day isn't loggable as NVG time. Technically if you want to convert your military logbook into FAR standards, you're probably going to need to cut a good bit of NVG time out. I left mine as is, because I have no clue what portion I've logged between "goggle dark" and SS+1 hr. If you fly instruments with the goggles down that doesn't count either.

 

61.51:

"(k) Logging night vision goggle time. (1) A person may log night vision goggle time only for the time the person uses night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night vision goggle operation; or

(ii) A flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise.

(2) An authorized instructor may log night vision goggle time when that person conducts training using night vision goggles as the primary visual reference of the surface and operates:

(i) An aircraft during a night goggle operation; or

(ii) A flight simulator or flight training device with the lighting system adjusted to represent the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise."

 

Definition of "night vision goggle operation" under 61.1:

"Night vision goggle operation means the portion of a flight that occurs during the time period from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise where the pilot maintains visual surface reference using night vision goggles in an aircraft that is approved for such an operation."



#17 d10

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 20:31

I had a medic who would goggle-up in the evening well before twilight. Coming back in the rain one evening he claimed to able to see further through the goggles. Best guess is that the rain on the windscreen was a visual distraction to an unaided eye, or was perhaps outside the goggle's focal depth of field.

Or, he was crazy.

 

What do you mean by well before twilight? I always liked to goggle up about 15 minutes after sunset. I've found that to be well before what most people consider goggle dark, and it's still light enough to see fairly well. You can't necessarily see further, but other aircraft are much easier to pick out under NVGs than going unaided in that period where you're using mesopic vision.



#18 Joe_P148

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 21:48

G cucuc

Was there some confusion?


Yeah night unaided vs nvg

#19 Flying Pig

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 22:14

Ahhhhh ok...... So you are referring to flying, say at dusk, with your NVGs. I gotcha. You are flying on NVGs but you technically aren't flying at "Night" per the FAR definition. Yeah if thats the situation a pilot is in, then I guess they'd have to work that out wen they do their book.

I have had the benefit of working until 2am for the past few years so it's plenty dark while I'm out cruisin'.

Edited by Flying Pig, 19 February 2014 - 22:24.

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#20 brackac

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 19:04

I normally fly with my eyes closed, so does that qualify as night unaided?






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