"Instructing on the Side"

[Zack]

I am an active duty aviator with the Army and I am about to get my CFI/CFII. I also have all the prerequisites to instruct in a Robinson, so I am looking at ways to build additional experience.

 

How many of you instruct part-time (weekends, possibly weekday evenings) on top of a full-time job? What has your experience been like interacting with students and the school with limited availability? For those with families, did it add a considerable amount of stress to family life or was it manageable?

 

I'd imagine a flight school would probably prefer a full-time instructor, but I'd imagine they also wouldn't mind having options to fill the schedule as well. Having military flight experience probably adds a little diversity to the pool if all the other instructors are low-time, civilian-trained guys.

[cryesis]

If you want the hours go full time.

[Flying Pig]

Having military flight experience probably adds a little diversity to the pool if all the other instructors are low-time, civilian-trained guys.

 

 

Its outstanding that you are an Army aviator. I wish I had gone that route…. but you would be surprised at how irrelevant your comment is to the civilian CFI market place. I wouldn't use that sales pitch when you interview or meet your new co-workers.

[RSrotorblade]

"Having military flight experience probably adds a little diversity to the pool if all the other instructors are low-time, civilian-trained guys"

 

That statement seems a little arrogant.

 

Are you an IP/IE?

 

Flying Pig is correct, a statement like that is irrelivant, but your experience is not. Be humble and share your knowledge and experience with students. Do not presume that you are some kind of sky god because you are an Army aviator. That kind of attitude gives us a bad reputation.

 

My advise to you would be to find a flight school, give them a call, and see what they have. Show them your log book and see what happens. Good luck

[rotormandan]

I don't think it sounds arrogant. It's a true statement. That background is diverse from a typical cfi. I don't know if it would help getting a job or not. All depends on the school. Worth a shot. You won't know til you try.

 

A couple fixed wing instructors at my school work full time elsewhere. They seemed to do fine evenings and weekends. Most of their students were private students doing it for fun.

 

As far as family life, if you have kids, it could be tough. Again it depends on your family but if it equals you working 7 days a week with 5 extra long days, I could see it being tough. Keep family 1st. The few extra hours aren't worth the missed time with family.

[Spike]

Flight schools are in business to teach students to gain certification. That certification is based on standard practices and the PTS. Standard practices and the PTS have little to do with diversity…. With that said, no matter where you come from, it’s highly advisable to learn from the established pool of employees in order to posture one’s self for employment. Obviously, they earned their spots and conform to the current culture of the school so THEY are the ones with “tacit knowledge” of what it takes to be selected. In short, many folks believe they have something “special” to offer but in the end these folks will find it difficult to gain employment simply because no one else finds them “special”…………

Edited March 1, 2014 by Spike

[aeroscout]

Most CFIs that I have met would prefer to be 9 to 5 M-F. They don't always get their wish, but if you could be available when they don't want to be you could have something going for you. One CFI I knew was hard to get ahold of during the summer. He was still young enough to want to be at the lake all summer, and he didn't let flying get in the way of that priority too much.

[Zack]

I want to apologize if I came off ignorant/arrogant, that was neither my intent nor is it a reflection of my frame of mind. I was simply wondering if having a different background would be desirable to a school. Time in an Army platform is a lot different from having a couple hundred hours in an R22; I'd wager the R22 is a tougher aircraft to fly from a cyclic+collective perspective.

 

Thanks for all the insights and perspectives in this thread.

[Flying Pig]

I didnt take you coming across as arrogant. Ive only done part time instructing…. but I think the issue is that in flight training is based on the PTS. Most students don't come anywhere close to earning their private on their 41st hour or their commercial on their 151st hour.

 

There just isn't time set aside for you to pass on much of the diversity you learned as an Army pilot or tell war stories about flying an Apache (or whatever it is you fly) As you know, in the civilian market, when my army pilot CFI is telling me some awesome story about a helicopter Ill probably never even have the chance to see in real life, Im PAYING for you to tell me that story.

 

Instructors and schools can market all they want about their terrain, the high DA, the fact that all of their CFIs are high time pilots who work in the "real world", etc etc etc…. Or do I want a guy who has 1000hrs in the airframe Im going to take my check ride in and who has sent up 15 students for every rating with a 95% pass rate and kept notes on exactly what the DPE asks on those check rides?

 

Your knowledge definitely translates over… FARs, Weather, Aerodynamics… all that stuff CFIs teach. But battle tactics, UH60 start up procedures, NVG, flying in Iraq…all that stuff that makes you diverse really doesn't ever come up. So in the end, yes your experience is diverse. It would probably be cool to see a CFI with Army wings on his flight suit, might make for some interesting conversations on a long cross country but there really isn't the time in the syllabus beyond what that "low time civilian trained CFI" is already effectively teaching.

[Wally]

At the private pilot level of instruction, the student has a full plate just getting the basics, instructor's experience level is a lesser factor than the ability to teach and familiarity with the process.

At the commercial level, depth and variety of experience becomes valuable insight in what's being taught and advantage. A new instructor with thousands of hours of broad flying would have something to offer, but the experienced new instructor would still be a new instructor which is a different skill set.

 

NOT TO HIGHJACK THE THREAD,

"Flyingpig" said: "It would probably be cool to see a CFI with Army wings on his flight suit".

Well, I see Army Aviator style wings on medic flight suits all the time, teeth clenched! I know it's not intentionally false, so I don't say anything. These are good people doing good work. Be aware that those wings mean a great deal to those who earned them, so "smile when you say that..."

[Flying Pig]

A school I spent time at had an army guard pilot who worked part time as a CFI and wore his army wings on his name patch. They wore tan flight suits also. I know he got called out more than once landing in an R22 on cross countries with students.

 

Public safety agencies often use military badges simply beause they are immediately available, inexpensive and easy to get. Army pilot and AF pilot wings, EOD badges, Diver badges, some of the marksmanship medals.... Not to mention rank insignia. My agency has the position of "warrant officer" and they wear Army CW05 bars. That person is equal to a Lt but the WO bars show that they are in charge of a specialty unit and possess a specialty skill themselves (Air Unit Commander/Pilot, EOD Commander, SWAT Commander) the couple of units I know of that wear army aviator wings do so because they agency won't pay for custom wings to be cut. The agency said "if you want wings find some that are already on the market". People seem to just default to Army or AF wings. My dept has our badge with the army style wings coming out.

 

They aren't trying to play army or pass themselves off as something they aren't. It usually just because it's what's out there and available.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Flying Pig

[Velocity173]

A school I spent time at had an army guard pilot who worked part time as a CFI and wore his army wings on his name patch. They wore tan flight suits also. I know he got called out more than once landing in an R22 on cross countries with students.

 

Public safety agencies often use military badges simply beause they are immediately available, inexpensive and easy to get. Army pilot and AF pilot wings, EOD badges, Diver badges, some of the marksmanship medals.... Not to mention rank insignia. My agency has the position of "warrant officer" and they wear Army CW05 bars. That person is equal to a Lt but the WO bars show that they are in charge of a specialty unit and possess a specialty skill themselves (Air Unit Commander/Pilot, EOD Commander, SWAT Commander) the couple of units I know of that wear army aviator wings do so because they agency won't pay for custom wings to be cut. The agency said "if you want wings find some that are already on the market". People seem to just default to Army or AF wings. My dept has our badge with the army style wings coming out.

 

They aren't trying to play army or pass themselves off as something they aren't. It usually just because it's what's out there and available.

In EMS we have a lot of us who wear military style wings simply because that's where we came from. Just in our local area here we have Marines, Army and CG all wearing branch wings on our flight suits. Now technically our policy manual says they have to be program specific (EMS) wings but the company just looks the other way. If they started to crack down and say we want all you former military pilots to wear EMS wings, I wouldn't care but it might cause some problems with other pilots.

[Astro]

As a non military trained pilot I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing military wings. So I just bought a plain pair from Sportys.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, having been in the military myself (infantry) I was the same way. The other guys didn't care because they were just going to be unit wings and were not vets. I looked at them as "No, those are Army pilot wings" The unit talked about going with the Army wings. Basic for new pilots and then adding the star and the wreath as you attained certain quals. Once you became a unit pilot, it took about 2 years to be qualified for every mission. And then we talked about earning the wreath meant a certain number of rescues, a certain hour mark. I think we talked about 3000hrs total, dual rated, set number of NVG. But the unit only had 3 pilots…. and only those 3 pilots would know what it meant. So we decided on just using the badge with wings. Simple, to the point. And in the end, nobody wanted to be the guy responsible for keeping track of all that information!

[Wally]

I know that it doesn't really matter to anybody- unless one understands what those wings cost. Do you know what it means to give those wings back, for instance?

[Flying Pig]

I wasn't a military pilot, but I imagine if I saw a unit wearing the Eagle Globe and Anchor as their SWAT emblem Id be more than a little miffed

 

An agency I worked for, if you were a Sgt on SWAT, they wore black metal USMC Sgt ranks with the crossed rifles on their collars. I asked one of the Sgts (because I didnt know) "Hey, Semper Fi. Who were you with?" He just looked at me and said "Huh?" "You were a Sgt in the Marines too?" pointing to his rank pin on his collar. He said "Oh,….. No, that means you are a Sgt on SWAT" he even responded, "I don't really like wearing them, but its not up to me."

[Dnr032]

I know that it doesn't really matter to anybody- unless one understands what those wings cost. Do you know what it means to give those wings back, for instance?

 

What does it mean to "give those wings back?" FEB? I have never heard that before?

 

We had a Chief Pilot at our Agency several years ago who came up as a pure civilian pilot. Never even served in the military even though he would have been in the Vietnam Era age bracket. (What was the back story there? Family political connections?). Anyway, he showed up at the office one day in a different personal vehicle with a Master Army Aviator wing front license plate. One of our other pilots at the time, a true Vietnam helicopter pilot vet, gave him so much crap about it that he finally went outside and removed it from his vehicle. I am sure, however, that as soon as he got home he put it back on- he was just that kind of guy.

[Wally]

What does it mean to "give those wings back?" FEB? I have never heard that before?

 

The story is that a pilot walked into ops one day and threw his wings on the desk, "I'm not flying helicopters for the Army anymore" and didn't.

I had flown with him, knew and respected the guy, don't see him creating a scene like that, but he did stop flying about halfway through his Vietnam tour. I still respect him, but haven't seen him since I came back to "The World".

 

To get through WORWOCs, fly half a tour and quit, remain with the company would be hard. I never asked why.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Wally

[aeroscout]

They say that in the Army

The troops are all well fed

They eat like alligators And

Their wings are made of lead

Oh lord I wanna go, o

But they won't let me go, o

Home, umhome om hoh oh oh oh Home

Hey !

[Bootcamp]

How many of you instruct part-time (weekends, possibly weekday evenings) on top of a full-time job? What has your experience been like interacting with students and the school with limited availability? For those with families, did it add a considerable amount of stress to family life or was it manageable?

 

I used to instruct full time (circa 2007/2008). I love teaching, but being a full time instructor was one of the biggest mistakes of my life. I only made enough to live on an air mattress on the hangar floor. (Not my proudest moment.)

 

Since 2008, I've been instructing part-time (about 20 flight hours per week). It's the best. I get to do what I love (teach), and still afford to pay the mortgage with a full-time job. There are many school that want you there full-time, but there are many more who are looking to fill those evening/weekend time slots for part-time students. It's a huge sell if you can bring students with you when you interview for the job. I wouldn't say it added any undue stress to the family, but then again, I don't have children.

 

Whenever one of my students asks about becoming a CFI, I tell them, "It's a great gig, as long as your still keep your day job."

Edited March 7, 2014 by Bootcamp

[Spike]

Most students don't come anywhere close to earning their private on their 41st hour or their commercial on their 151st hour.

 

At the school where I taught, the majority of full-time commercial students (if not all of them) took the ride at 150 hours. If they didn’t, something was wrong…… Average for private rides was approximately 50 hours……

[Flying Pig]

Id say the majority of flight schools aren't doing full time programs. But my point is that even if your check ride is on your 151st hour, where in that training program would a military pilot have had the opportunity to really show how "diverse" they are? They wouldn't. Every .1 of that program is consumed with the basics of what is needed to pass the ride. Anything beyond that is making my bill more than it should be.

[Spike]

Id say the majority of flight schools aren't doing full time programs. But my point is that even if your check ride is on your 151st hour, where in that training program would a military pilot have had the opportunity to really show how "diverse" they are? They wouldn't. Every .1 of that program is consumed with the basics of what is needed to pass the ride. Anything beyond that is making my bill more than it should be.

 

Agreed... However, schools nowadays no longer use the 150 hours as a target of measurement. It’s now 200 hours… IF, these schools still used 150 as the goal, the extra 50 (to meet the SFAR) is an opportunity to showcase ones diversity…..

Edited March 7, 2014 by Spike

[Pohi]

"Check this out, this is how we make approaches to a hot LZ in Afghanistan!!"

 

Followed shortly after with an NTSB accident report :-)

[Wally]

"Check this out, this is how we make approaches to a hot LZ in Afghanistan!!"

 

Followed shortly after with an NTSB accident report :-)

 

Well, yeah, a military trained, combat experienced pilot might bend that way.

It's also possible that the all civilian pilot might have some 'watch this' moves to offer. Perhaps that likelihood is even more likely if all the bored instructor has done in hundreds of hours is circuits and bumps, PTS maneuver demonstration and student critiques.

Don't assume either civilian or military IP will be the jerk and fail in professional ethics and self-discipline. And, no, I don't see the civilian pilot as less disciplined without the military background.

 

What the military pilot will undoubtedly have to offer is the benefit if a somewhat diverse flight experience, from flight training with a different emphasis, to the last hour flown on a mission. Even within PTS strictures, the more ways you can teach, the better likelihood that you'll reach the student who is challenging you right now.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Wally