Low-Hour Army Pilot to Civilian Requesting Career Advice

[brian74]

I'm approaching this as humbly as I can, and any good advice would be greatly appreciated if you have the time to read through all of this.

 

I am currently a 6 year Army CW2 with about 750 (flying) hours.

 

Anyone who has served knows that even in Army aviation: depending on the unit / airframe you are in, hours aren't always easy to come by and the standards can vary by unit. With deployments dying down, this is becoming even more common. Unfortunately I wasn't in all the right places & airframes during my last 6 years; conducive to building many hours & experience.

 

In light of the recent cuts, I am not very optimistic about promotions and being able to stay in. There are a lot more guys in my position than I realized. I want to be prepared in case I do find myself without a job in a year from now.

 

I am currently an LUH (EC-145) PC and should have at least 150 PC hours in that aircraft prior to ending my service. (A lot of guys have told me that airframe experience will help me.)

 

I have a wife and a kid to support. We can live reasonably for 2-3 years off of our savings and the severance pay if we have to. We're willing to relocate anywhere and she supports any decision I make.

 

I've gotten a lot of optimistic advice from current Army pilots, but I haven't talked to many professional pilots who are working outside the Army. I want to have realistic expectations.

 

I know this is all a year out from now and not in stone yet but I like to be prepared and explore my options. In order to develop my options, I have come up with a few questions in order of importance that some of you may be able to help me out with.

 

1. Can I count my Army CP time towards my "total" hours?

 

2. I have always kept an unofficial flight log of my hours to keep flight operations in check. Would it behove me to develop and maintain a digital / paper logbook of my flight time? or will most potential employers be happy enough with my 759 (military flight record)?

 

3. I have every intention of joining a guard unit to try and build more time.

I also have the post 911 GI bill; it will pay 10k a year towards part 141 schools. Would it behove me to get my CFI to build time that way as well?

 

4. I'll be 40. I'm clearly older than many guys in this career at my experience level. Does this factor seem to change the impression of employers or make much difference?

 

5. Does that Embry Riddle Professional Aeronautics Degree make much difference in the civilian world?

 

6. Are helicopter pilot job markets particularly more lucrative in other countries?

 

 

Only other option I see is a career change and using my GI bill to attend an undergrad course with a new major, or trying to secure a civilian DoD job in a related field.

 

Like I said, right now I am in the brainstorming phase and trying to get as many facts and advice as I can in order to form a reasonable plan.

 

Please, feel free to throw out your best "if I were you." I've read a lot in here and the people who speak from their own experiences paint the best picture.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Brian

[McGavin]

I'm not military so I can't answer all of your questions, but I found myself in a similar situation so I feel I'm qualified to give some advice. The way I see it, you will need to somehow build another 300+ Military hours and hope to land a tour job near Las Vegas / Grand Canyon or get your CFII and build some Robinson time in the process. Then hope to land a instruction job to bridge the gap.

 

It will be a battle for low paying jobs until you hit 1,500 hours with the real magic number of 2,000 hours. On a positive note, there are many struggling pilots with much less experience who succeed. With your experience, doors will swing open once you hit that magic number.

 

They offered a military to civilian workshop at the last HAI. I found it very informative and highly recommend it attending if they so it again next year.

 

3. I have every intention of joining a guard unit to try and build more time.

I also have the post 911 GI bill; it will pay 10k a year towards part 141 schools. Would it behove me to get my CFI to build time that way as well?

 

No doubt that you will need to become a CFI and build some time in the R22 & R44

 

4. I'll be 40. I'm clearly older than many guys in this career at my experience level. Does this factor seem to change the impression of employers or make much difference?

 

No. It will not be a issue. Flight weight is a much bigger concern.

 

5. Does that Embry Riddle Professional Aeronautics Degree make much difference in the civilian world?

 

Although I would love to have a Riddle Degree, I don't feel it is worth the time or money unless to want to be a aviation manager and not a pilot

[avbug]

There are two types of minimums for jobs that you're up against in any given application sitiuation: published minimums, and competitive minimums. To find work you need to meet the minimum requirements as established by the employer (total time, night time, long line, etc), and you'll also need to meet competitive minimums (what other pilots applying for the same job will have: if the minimums are a thousand hours for the job but the other applicants all have relevant 5,000 hours, then the actual competitive minimums for the job are the five thousand hours, not what the employer set out as the hiring minimums.

 

A degree isn't worth a lot to most utility employers; it counts for some corporate operations, and it may serve as a discriminator when competing with other similarly qualified pilots who don't have a degree...but most of the time no, it won't help a lot. Embry Riddle doesn't have the stellar brand that some graduates believe it has; in many places pilots and employers roll their eyes when someone indicates that they're a riddle grad. Don't let that discourage you, but don't hold up your diploma as one of the first offerings, either. Your degree yes, but don't wave the brand name around as it may produce an undesired effect.

 

You may find that providing instruction becomes a necessary part of your life for a time, while you increase your total time somewhat. That doesn't pay well, and your options may be limited if you have no Robinson time, as a great many of the training facilities use Robinson equipment. You may feel that doing instruction is a step back, and it may be for you, but that may still be necessary as you transition from the military to a civil world.

 

A lot of the support and the structure to which you have had access in your career to date will not be present in the civil world. It's much more dog eat dog, and there's little loyalty, comaraderie, or brotherhood amid the civil goings-on. There's some consideration for your service, but not a lot. If you don't presently hold instructor certification, that may be your best bet. Unless you can do considerable flying in Robinson equipment, you may want to focus on getting your training in a facility that has equipment that's closer to your experience and background, and that can hire you when you're finished training. Preferably a facility that stays busy enough to get you the hours and experience you need.

 

Bear in mind that guard duties may limit your marketability to some employers, especially those that may send you out for a season and need you to be available. An employer may not discriminate legally, of course, but I've seen plenty of cases in which faced with several nearly equal choices, those with outside obligations may see less favoritism or hiring than others who do not.

 

Have you visited APTAP (army pilot to airline pilot) to see what's offered on the forums for your situation? Not everyone wants to make that kind of a transition, but you'll find a lot of questions and answers that may address some of your concern. Try http://www.aptap.org

[Velocity173]

Man you must have been MEDEVAC your whole time in! My advice simply would be to stay in for at least another 5 yrs. You're not going to be marketable for any decent paying job for awhile.

 

You can try and use CP towards total time but any hiring manager that knows anything about Army logging wouldn't count it towards crap. I included it on my total flight time but the 54 hrs of 60 CP wasn't exactly needed for a job since I had like 3,844 total Army time. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure how I got 54 hrs of CP time. It's definitively not on my civ logs.

 

You should always keep a personal log book outside of your 759. It should also show a slightly higher total time PIC for the reason above. Having said that, most employers just want to see a 759 printout. In your interview they don't have time to be flipping through pages of nonsense when they can see a quick breakdown of your time on one page. I don't know of a single former Army friend who said they even looked at their civ logbooks. Some said they didn't even look at anything. Doesn't matter though because after you're hired you'll fill out an FAA form and an insurance form asking for your experience. There's a disclaimer on both of them that basically says if you're lying on any of your experience you can be prosecuted. If there's an accident, they're going to go through your logs with a fine tooth comb.

 

CFI is fine if you have the time to do that. Obviously it won't pay anything near what you're making in the Army. Everyone talks about doing the CFI thing in their spare time until they realize they basically won't have any spare time to spend with the family. Knew a few Army dudes who had the CFI but none of them did it on a regular basis in their off time.

 

No one cares about your age. Insurance cost is mostly dictated by hours. I've seen a few EMS pilots getting hired on with mins (2,000 TT) in their 50s. We have a bunch of guys in EMS in their 60s and 70s. The company keeps them because their gazillion hours keeps insurance costs down.

 

As Avbug said, no one really cares about a degree either. I asked a buddy of mine in another EMS company about them asking about a degree when he got hired. He laughed. Nope, they couldn't care less about him having a degree. He has a Masters as well. An ATP would be nice, some companies even pay a bonus because of it but definitely not required. Personally I'd rather see someone with a degree than an ATP. So you get on Sheppard Air and take the practice tests to get your ATP. Big deal.

 

The market can be very lucrative in other countries. I work with guys who were in places in the Middle East (Saudi / UAE) making well into 6 figures. They all had thousands of hours to get those twin eng IFR jobs. They all got tired of living in those crappy countries as well.

 

So, as I said, I'd stay in awhile. I'd stay in until you have at least 1,500 hrs. I think a few tour companies, LE, EMS and utility can work with you with that experience.

 

Oh yeah, EC-145 time only matters if the job you're applying for operates an EC-145. In that case I'd say that would be mostly EMS in the States. Still won't matter unless you have the min 2,000 hr TT. It's a non waiverable CAMTS requirement. I had no EC-135 time and was offered a SPIFR 135 position because of previous experience (IE). Only takes a couple weeks to do the course.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Velocity173

[brian74]

Thanks so much for advice. I've been doing a lot of research and getting a pretty reasonable picture. I am picking up that 1500 is the magic number for entry-level. I've also been told that some employers may make considerations by a few hundred hours in light of Army regs vs FAA regs for flight time, depending on the current market. That's all here nor there. I'm gonna make 1500 hours my goal.

 

I am hearing a lot of guys saying some civilian time in an R22 and a CFI would help alongside the 1500 hours. Not sure what it is about the R-22, but I am anxious to get a flight in one.

 

Ive been anticipating the likelihood of this situation since day 1 and have prepared accordingly and saved financially. I drive a 15 year old car that I rebuilt & maintain myself. My biggest personal expenses are my rental mortgage and the helicopter IFR flight training simulator I've been building over the past 6 years. We live modestly and save as much as we can.

 

I can afford to get my CFI and my family can afford me to fly hourly rate for a couple hundred hours if need be. If I need to be unemployed for a year afterward just to be in the right place to pick up CFI gigs and build my last 200-500 hours, we can afford that. If we have to move to Vegas or Florida to take a tour job for awhile, we can afford that.

 

Point being, despite the limiting factor, I have the combination of a supportive wife, determination, and a bit of finances to get me in the neighborhood of that 1500 goal. My goal isn't to get paid well. Its to expand my skills in a profession that I am passionate about and become better at it. Its that chance of flying with the next guy who makes you a better pilot or having the next oh sh*t moment that gives you new perspective. If the money I make doing that eventually keeps my family fed, then I'm breaking even. I feel fortunate to have the head start that I have. If I am lucky, some day I will have the opportunity to help others who are just as passionate obtain that same goal.

 

If I could stay in the Army, I would. Unfortunately, the Army is going through some tough times right now and a lot of great employees are going to be cut. It isn't a choice for us, its a reality that we must face and plan for accordingly. The writing isn't on the wall for me as of yet; I will find out in a few months. I am looking out for # 1,2 & 3 in the meantime and doing the best I can to prepare for that if it does

happen. If you've read this far, thanks for listening.

[avbug]

No chance of a lateral move to a unit that might offer you different experience and perhaps more time?

[brian74]

No chance of a lateral move to a unit that might offer you different experience and perhaps more time?

I'm in that unit right now, only due to compassionate circumstances reassignment of the Army for a prior family emergency health issue (which is fixed now, due to a great transplant surgeon that the Army paid several tens of thousands of dollars for.) I was merely fortunate to get an EC-145 transition out of it and a wife who is still alive. I can't, nor wouldn't ask the Army for more.

[avbug]

Fair enough.

[Hobbit64]

Just my humble $0.02....

 

I strongly second searching and using APTAP as another tool in your job/career hunt. Lots of discussion there about what you're asking.

 

Given your situation and hour level, If you are going to get out before '20', then I Definitely recommend looking into joining the guard (or reserves) for a number of reasons.

#1. Tricare Reserve Select

#2. Flight time and Schools (IFE, IPC, AMOC etc)

#3. Contacts in the civilian job market. A good portion of people in the guard units fly in the local job market and can help you out. It's more about 'Who you know...' Plus, the mentor-ship in your transition will be helpful. You will be going into a different world and folks in your unit can help you stay clear of pitfalls. I was warned away from a local 135 company I had set my sights on.

#4. Retirement check at 60. Most will be around $2000 per month depending on your 'points'.

#5. Possible full time job, Technician, ADSW, AGR. I did this and stayed.

#6. Extra Money (Drills, AFTPs, Schools, ERAD) will soften the financial blow as you transition from the active duty money train, allowing you to keep your 'deployment money nest egg' intact as you transition off active duty.

 

With your Lakota time/experience, you may get a slot in the S&S in your state and get to fly it some more. Depending on how much free time you have and the Optempo of the unit, you may be able to guard bum for a while and pull AFTPs when they need a pilot. I know my unit has trouble some times because the part timers have a full time job they have to maintain.

 

As AVbug said, it does limit your options and some employers view the guard as a hassle (and it is for the employers in a low density company). Additionally, nothing is free but you do benefit from it.

 

 

If you have an unofficial log of your flights with dates, Take off and landing locations, flight times (breakdowns etc) and crew then put each entry into a logbook and sign the pages. That logbook then becomes official in the eyes of the FAA. I transferred all my paper logbooks to Logbook Pro. If you fly an IFR flight, in IMC, at night in the Lakota then you log only 'W' on the -12. In the civilian world (your logbook) you will log both 'Actual Instrument' (W) and 'Night'. Those are where keeping your own logbook is key. Plus, it keeps the 15P's honest. I went backwards 200 hours in one month in Afg when I was flying my rear off. I got that put back in with my records as the initial proof.

 

No one cares about your career more than you.

 

There are a great many people who have been in your exact position and made it happen. It is doable.

 

Good Luck

[Wally]

First, I would compile a civilian format logbook if I could reasonably do so. I've seen inaccurate company and government flight records, whatever the form is called. It is your record, not theirs. Outside party records may align pretty well, huge discrepancies or a pattern of distortion is how I audit formats. I'll repeat, it is your record, and your prerogative to keep it. It also does away with "rule of thumb" time adjustments and arguments about the difference between organizational flight time rules.

 

Your chances of plugging into a 145 job at 750 hours in the pure civilian world are pretty slim.

 

I enjoyed instructing in the civilian world. It's hard to make money at it, but it's an excellent introduction to the civilian world. It can be a good network builder as well.

 

Expat work can be very lucrative. Used to know a guy in Papua-New Guinea ("The PNG") that was doing very, very well. I also knew a pilot who left the Gulf of Mexico for the Arabian Peninsula who claimed his employer there, uh- "took advantage" of him and his contemporaries.

 

A sister site to this that is useful- http://www.helicoptersalaries.com/

[apacheguy]

If you fly an IFR flight, in IMC, at night in the Lakota then you log only 'W' on the -12. In the civilian world (your logbook) you will log both 'Actual Instrument' (W) and 'Night'. Those are where keeping your own logbook is key.

 

This is an awesome tip, I got some logbook maintenance to do...

 

Danke Hobbit.

[kona4breakfast]

Definitely make sure your logbook is based on FAA definitions for flight time, PIC time, instrument and night time.

 

Consider getting your Canadian CPL(H) while you are still in. You can work commercial right out of the gate in Canada. CHC is hiring folks for their Eurocopter fleet at the 1000 hour mark. You will definitely get legit experience flying utility in Canada, and their mountain course is better known than HAATS.

 

Join a National Guard unit when you are out. The AKNG is flexible with their M day folks and will even let them live in the lower 48 as long as they can come up and do their time at some point in the year.

 

I was pretty much in your position when I got out last year, though I had about 100 more hours (and probably 4 more years in aviation). I don't have a family though, so I had that going for me. I spent the summer on active duty orders for the AKNG and flew quite a bit, but you probably won't have the option with the fiscal environment in most states. I used the GI Bill to go to school part-time for my Plan B option if this doesn't work out, and guard bummed the rest of the time. I also paid out of pocket for an R44 SFAR at a local operator that was just getting established and was owned by a friend of a friend. I managed to get my PIC ride from the guard and a job interview with an O&G operator this spring and now sit at 1300 hours and seasonally employed. It took 8 months of applying for jobs and personally sitting down with the local lead pilot where I got my job to actually secure the interview. I got lucky, but had it not worked out I would likely be working for the R44 operator where I paid for the SFAR.

 

Unless you can get down to 180 pounds flight weight, your best bet is to go to Canada. If you can get to 180, get your CFII in the R22 and get a job at Bristow Academy or Hillsboro or another school with a lot of throughput to keep you busy. In either case, go talk to some NG units and let them know who you are and see if they would be amenable to hiring someone who will likely be a Fall-to-Spring member of their unit. You can always go IRR for the first rough year or two until your life is stable. Life is pretty sweet as an M-day PC, and the bennies will help you take care of your family, because unless you can get into O&G, being a commercial helo pilot won't.

[Nearly Retired]

You have a wife and a kid and 750 military hours and you want to become a civilian commercial helicopter pilot.

 

You say you'll "move anywhere." (Question: Does your wife know how many times this will have to happen? Do you?)

 

You'll have to have two cars: One for you to commute in; and one for her to shuttle the kid around in (shopping, etc.). And...

 

You think you can do this on a civilian helicopter pilot entry level salary. With a wife. And a kid.

 

You're crazy.

 

Crazy.

 

It's a bad plan, with no guarantee of success and a HUGE amount of luck/prayer/good fortune needed to just get a job where you can (maybe) make ends meet.

 

Bad plan.

 

But hey, aviation is full of crazy guys and gals just like you so you won't be the first. Get in line!

 

And when you get a couple of years down the road, and your wife and kid and the good car are long gone, and you're eating Ramen Noodles and tuna fish in your room in some crappy employee-provided single-wide trailer, don't say I didn't warn you.

 

Have fun!

[eagle5]

I second that!

[helonorth]

With your time, you would certainly be looked at by ag operators. You won't do much flying for a couple years as you will be mostly driving, etc, but if you found out you liked it, it would be a way around spending all the time and money on a CFI and then living on subsistance wages while you slowly build hours. And no R-22! The timetable would be about the same for both for getting to the point of a decent paying job. Ag can pay very well, but it is a lifestyle few can handle. Try calling Scott's Helicopter Service in Minnesota. I can almost guarantee he will put you to work, although any meaningful flight time will be a ways off. Plan on 2-4 years before a full time seat. Good luck.

[Azhigher]

Use your GI bill to get your CFII and try to work as an instructor to build hours. You won't make much money for a while but you can probably continue to fly. Ask your wife to work, maybe look afer some other kids while she looks after her own to bring in some extra income.

 

In any case if you continue to fly you're going to be taking a big step down from what you're used to. Sucks, but welcome to civilian aviation.

[Hobbit64]

1-800-Go-Guard

 

As a 'part timer' (M-Day) pilot maxing out your AFTPS, Drills, etc you should pull down about 15-25K depending on rank and YoS. I've known some to Break 35K. Hopefully the 72 AFTP's per year will continue.

 

With your Lakota time, you may be able to get down on the south west border and fly your rear off.

 

Either way, given the unfiltered advice above you really need to look at the Guard or Reserves. If for nothing esle, for the Tricare Reserve Select.

[superstallion6113]

As long as you have the drive, financial plan, and a family that's behind you, I'd absolutely go for it.

 

The very one and only reason I am in Trashcanistan working is to make buku bucks to be able to come home with zero debt and a huge savings account and be prepared enough to work for dismal pay fora few years until I get enough hours to move onto to something better, then better after that. The plus is a have a sweet job that I like, but I can't do this forever.

[brian74]

Thanks for all the indispensable advice.

 

Well, looks like I am leaving the Army in February. I should be at about 900-950 hours by then. Had a long and detailed discussion with the wife about our situation. We've decided if plan A doesn't pan out, we will sell all of our extraneous possessions and purchase an RV. With what we have saved up, we can max out our IRA's and live reasonably on the road little to no additional income for the next couple of years. We've both traveled light and lived modestly in the past, so this will be nothing new to either of us.

My thought behind this is that it will grant me the flexibility to travel to and work in whatever entry-level/low hour jobs I can find, scrape together my remaining needed flight hours, and make as many face to face contacts in the civilian industry as I can. Once I can secure something lucrative, we will sell the RV and settle down again.

Not putting the Guard out of the question, but until the Army aviation restructuring initiative is complete, and I have decided on which state we will eventually settle down in, I don't want to put too many eggs in that basket as of yet.

I'll be at Heli Success in November. Looking forward to meeting some of you.

[Matt321]

I was in a similar situation to you when I got out five years ago. For me, the reason was motivated by family and I wanted to move back home to NH. I got out with 1400 hours and all the right kind of hours, but it wasn't enough to get a job with any of the local utility, ENG, or EMS companies. I've waited 5 years and now that we're in a better position, I decided to go get some Robbie time and start building time teaching part time. Fortunately, if you have IP/IE quals in the Army it's really easy to get the CFI and II, although you still have to get the SFAR minimums to teach (50hrs R22). Most insurance companies also want you to have the Robinson factory course.

I had the GI Bill when I got out but decided to use it on education instead. In this area (New England) the BAH is quite high. With a cap on the flight training of just over 10k (if not enrolled in college) you'll not have enough in a year to pay for the 50 hrs you need to teach in the R22. Instead, I chose to go to school the last couple of years and save up (I'm taking 1 graduate class at a time and making over $1,000 a month). 2 years of school = 24,000 if you go all year - plenty of money to get both your CFI and II ratings and PIC in a R44 as well. Is by BS and MBA going to help me get a help job? Heck no, but it's not a bad way to make some money and open more doors.

I'm also working full time as a cop to keep paying the bills. While it will take longer this way, I can keep my family in the same place and continue to live comfortably. Currently, I've taken a break from school and am closing in on the 50hrs I need to teach. I'm also doing tours in the R44 part time. Getting the CFI II was a non event and the R22 is not complicated to learn.

I guess my point to all this is that you may want to slow down a bit. If the Guard is for you then sure, join up. I was DONE with the Army when I got out and had no desire to stay in the Guard - once again, I wanted to be home. With almost 1000 hrs you may be able to swing a tour job, if you are presistent enough. If you have savings to last you a year, I'd get your CFI at a good school, preferably one that also does commercial work as well. Save your GI Bill for education (it pays more and I enjoyed getting my aviation undergrad) if you already have the money for training. I know everyone on these forums scoffs at wasting time on a degree but theres nothing wrong with a little knowledge and a bunch of extra cash.

Don't listen to any negative comments. You are obviously passionate about flying and will make this happen. I just would recommend a little patience. Good luck, I'm glad to hear your wife made a miraculous recovery. Send me a PM if you want more help with military to civilian stuff, logbook, etc. Too much to post here.

[d10]

I had the GI Bill when I got out but decided to use it on education instead. In this area (New England) the BAH is quite high....Save your GI Bill for education (it pays more and I enjoyed getting my aviation undergrad) if you already have the money for training. I know everyone on these forums scoffs at wasting time on a degree but theres nothing wrong with a little knowledge and a bunch of extra cash.

 

This is how I'm using my GI Bill in the DC area. It's amazing how many people waste their benefits on unnecessary ratings or part time classes. I'm getting probably $3k/month in value out of mine while some people are spending 4 months of benefits on a $500 online class.

[brian74]

Well, I got picked up by the National Guard to continue flying Lakotas as an mday (part time) guy. At about 800 hours as of now; seems the best option as I really enjoyed being in the guard before. Would love to slide in to a temp or perm full time slot at some point but obviously no guarantees. Just happy enough I get to stay in the LUH; most AD units are losing theirs anyways. GI bill will come in handy to fall back on should I decide to finish my degree; huge IT presence in that area pulling from the local college.

 

Anyone in the same boat as I was seperating from the Army with any questions on joining the guard, ACAP, sep pay, orders ect. and separating facts from rumors, feel free to PM me as I have pretty well run the gamut at this point having had to research most the info on my own. For some reason there is a lot of inadequate and incorrect info being put out lately.

 

A big thanks to everyone else for all the advice and perspectives.

[akscott60]

Congrats man! That is great to hear.

[Chrismorris]

 

I think you should decide on career switch by taking into consideration both pros and cons. If you are interested in flying a helicop and I think you should go for it. I wish you good luck.