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'Passenger' carrying currency requirements


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#1 DYllama

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:34

Do photojournalists count as passengers or crew? Do you need to maintain takeoff/landing currency to fly with them?

Thanks

#2 Spike

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:54

You need to maintain recent flight experience regardless of the titles of the folks sitting in the cabin.

§61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command:

 

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—

Unless you’re operating a machine which requires 2 people to fly it i.e. –copilot or an additional pilot required by the operation (IFR or NVG), you must be current to carry anyone.


Edited by Spike, 07 June 2014 - 10:56.


#3 DYllama

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:32

"(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise"

 

I'm just asking if the FAA would define them as a passenger or not. 

 

If people in the cabin are not passengers, then it doesn't apply. 



#4 Astro

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 13:11

If the guy sitting next to you is not a CFI giving you instruction he's a passenger, so make sure you're current.

#5 DYllama

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 13:25

Excellent, thank you Astro.  Do they actually provide any list of how they define things anywhere? 

 

It feels like they publish so many things in misleading or vague ways just so they have something to stick you with.....or maybe they're just lonely and want to get letters in the mail requesting clarifications



#6 Spike

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 16:20

If people in the cabin are not passengers, then it doesn't apply.


If they are not passengers, then what are they? Crewmembers? Unless that "crewmember" is a CFI or an additional pilot required by aircraft certification, then it applies. In your particular case (and mine as I fly ENG), you’re either solo, or have a CFI with you when you gain recent flight experience day, or night. No passengers, no so-called "crewmembers".....


Edited by Spike, 07 June 2014 - 16:25.


#7 DYllama

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 16:42

Technically, they ARE crewmembers.  And by definition, crewmembers are not passengers.  But the FAA doesn't always do things the same way as others, so that's why I ask.

 

The letter of the law says that the currency requirements only apply to passengers....I don't carry any passengers. 


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#8 Astro

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 17:32

Excellent, thank you Astro.  Do they actually provide any list of how they define things anywhere? 

 

It feels like they publish so many things in misleading or vague ways just so they have something to stick you with.....or maybe they're just lonely and want to get letters in the mail requesting clarifications

 

Sadly the regs like many other things in life are designed by people who don't think like the average Joe.  My new "smart" phone for instance is so user-unfriendly its rediculous!

 

Here's a question I thought up as I was re-reading this reg.  It says you can do the takeoffs/landings in a simulator to get current.  SFAR 73 states that the currency must be in the appropriate Robbie.  So, if you need to get current in the R44 can you do it in a simulator that is set up like an R44?



#9 iChris

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 18:15

Do photojournalists count as passengers or crew? Do you need to maintain takeoff/landing currency to fly with them?

Thanks

It depends on how your ENG operation is setup.

 

Since a number of ENG operations also hold a part 135 certificate, there is a provision under Part 135. If that person is assigned a duty with respect to the operation you are engaged in, they meet the definition as “crewmember” as defined in CFR §1.1

 

A "crewmember" is defined as a person assigned to duty during flight time, CFR §1.1. Under CFR §135.85, any crewmember or other employee of the certificate holder may be carried on board without complying with the passenger-carrying requirements of part 135.

 

To codify the fact that the person, designated as a crewmember, is preforming a pre-assigned duty, the operator documents the crewmember's duties and responsibilities and includes them in the air carrier's general operations manual. It need only be a couple of paragraph for each person preforming duties with respect to the ENG operation. 

 

§61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90

days, and…

 

(e) Exceptions. 3) This section does not apply to a pilot in command who is employed by a part 119 certificate holder authorized to conduct operations under part 135 when the pilot is engaged in a flight operation under parts 91 and 135 for that certificate holder if the pilot in command is in compliance with §135.243 and §135.247 of this chapter.

 

In so far as the ENG operation is not engaged in a “Passenger-carrying operations” as defined under §110.2, those parts of §135.243 and §135.247 related to Passenger-carrying operations do not apply. 

 

§135.85 Carriage of persons without compliance with the passenger-carrying provisions of this part.

The following persons may be carried aboard an aircraft without complying with the passenger-carrying requirements of this part:

 

(a) A crewmember or other employee of the certificate holder.

 

14 CFR §110.2 - Passenger-carrying operation means any aircraft operation carrying any person, unless the only persons on the aircraft are those identified in §§121.583(a) or 135.85 of this chapter, as applicable. An aircraft used in a passenger-carrying operation may also carry cargo or mail in addition to passengers.

 

“If a server is assigned duties during flight time, such as serving food or beverages, the operator could consider the server a crewmember which would allow that person to ride in the jumpseat. See Mar. 19, 1986, Letter to James W. Johnson, from John H. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations and Enforcement Division [Interpretation 1986-12] (mechanic employee is a crewmember and may ride in the jumpseat if assigned duty during flight time).”

 

“Additional requirements attach if the operator elects to consider the server a crewmember. The information accompanying SAFO 08010 notes that a server not designated as a crewmember is subject to the same regulatory requirements as passengers. However, it further states that if the operator determines that the server is a crewmember, the server/crewmember's duties and responsibilities must be included in the air carrier's general operations manual.”

 

REF: FAA Chief Counsel to Mr. Scehr; Sept 2008


Edited by iChris, 08 June 2014 - 11:06.

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Regards,

Chris

#10 Spike

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 19:36

Over the years, I’ve ran into plenty of folks who believe they can simply “designate” a person as a “crewmember” to skirt the rules. Conversely, I’ve met very few folks in the 135 community who do not understand the definition of “crewmember” to include duties and responsibilities, and thus my reply…..



#11 eagle5

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 19:45

It would take less time to just do three takeoffs and landings then read through all this! :)
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#12 Curyfury

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 00:57

What qualifies as a take off when it comes to helicopters? Can you go to a hover, fly forward 10ft, land and call that one evolution? Where does it say you must fly a pattern?

#13 eagle5

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 20:53

Ask the guy who signs your paycheck.

#14 iChris

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 11:59

What qualifies as a take off when it comes to helicopters? Can you go to a hover, fly forward 10ft, land and call that one evolution? Where does it say you must fly a pattern?

 

"In regards to the phrase “. . . three takeoffs and three landings . . . .” with respect to helicopters or any other aircraft category, class, and type, the intent of § 61.57[a] and [b] requires a flight in the traffic pattern between the takeoff phase of flight and landing phrase of flight."

 

"Therefore, lifting off the ground from a position of rest to a hover and returning to a position of rest on the ground five feet away from the point of liftoff, would not meet the intent of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b]. Nor would a series of three liftoffs and set downs to and from a hover to the same point on the ground, meet the intent of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b]."

 

2009

 

Sir,

 

It was a pleasure talking to you on the phone today. After you provided additional information, I was able to find the response to your inquiry. I apologize for the delay.

 

QUESTION: Please provide a legal interpretation of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b] in

regards to the definition of the terms “takeoff” and “landing” with respect to helicopters.

 

Would lifting off the ground from a position of rest to a hover and returning to a position of rest on the ground, five feet away from the point of liftoff, be considered one [1] takeoff and one [1] landing toward the requirements of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b]?

 

Moreover, would a series of three liftoffs and set-downs, to and from a hover, to the same point on the ground meet the requirements of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b]?

 

Attached is the supposed copy of a September 1990 letter of interpretation that addresses “takeoff” and “landing.” However, I cannot find such a letter on your website or verify its authenticity. Is this a true copy? If so, were can it be found on your website.

 

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.57[a] and [b]; In your letter you requested a legal interpretation of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b] in regards to the definition of the terms “takeoff” and “landing” with respect to helicopters. It was decided your question was more a Flight Standards Service policy issue rather than justifying a legal interpretation.

 

In regards to the phrase “. . . three takeoffs and three landings . . . .” with respect to helicopters or any other aircraft category, class, and type, the intent of § 61.57[a] and [b] requires a flight in the traffic pattern between the takeoff phase of flight and landing phrase of flight.

 

This is emphasized by how it is stated in the private pilot aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.109[a][5][iii] for the airplane single engine rating; § 61.109[b][5][iii] for the airplane multiengine rating; § 61.109[c][4][iii] for the helicopter rating; § 61.109[d][4][iii] for the gyroplane rating; § 61.109[e][5][iii] for the powered-lift rating; § 61.109[g][1][ii][B] for the airship rating, § 61.109[i][4][ii] for the powered parachute rating; and § 61.109[j][2][ii] for the weight shift control aircraft. The commercial pilot aeronautical experience for takeoffs and landings are also worded similarly. Per § 61.109[c][4][iii] for the helicopter rating, the rule states:

 

[iii] Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop [with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern] at an airport with an operating control tower.

 

The purpose for the takeoff and landing recent flight experience requirements in § 61.57[a] and [b] is for pilots to maintain their takeoff and landing skills. Lifting up and setting back down does not meet the intent of “. . . three takeoffs and three landings . . . .” of § 61.57[a] and [b].

 

In reviewing the FAA’s Rotorcraft Flying Handbook, FAA H 8083 21, it describes a takeoff as “an orderly transition to forward flight and is executed to increase altitude safely and expeditiously.” Even Figure 9 8 shows a depiction of a takeoff that involves forward flight and climbing to altitude. Whereas, a landing is described and depicted in Figures 9 18 and 9 19 as showing a traffic pattern phrase of flight.

 

Therefore, lifting off the ground from a position of rest to a hover and returning to a position of rest on the ground five feet away from the point of liftoff, would not meet the intent of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b]. Nor would a series of three liftoffs and set downs to and from a hover to the same point on the ground, meet the intent of 14 CFR § 61.57[a] and [b].

 

The letter of interpretation that you referred to in your letter that was signed by Mr  Donald P. Byrne, Acting Chief Counsel, was an FAA legal interpretation that was published in the Federal Aviation Decisions as Interpretation No. 1990-26.

 

Craig Holmes

Manager, Certification and

General Aviation Operations Branch, AFS-810

Flight Standards Service

 

202-493-5385 FAX: 202-267-5094

 

Scan-1%201_zpsb7m8eckn.jpg


Edited by iChris, 01 March 2015 - 13:17.

Regards,

Chris

#15 Flying Pig

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 09:57

Aviation regs are much like case law in the legal system.  Where there is confusion or lack of clarity in a law, courts have established precedence with case law and court decisions.  Thats where many people get themselves into trouble.  They will read the reg and say "nothing says I have to fly a full traffic pattern" but they fail to research legal precedence establishing the standard.   

I see it continually in police work.   Someone will rattle off a law to make a point (wrong point) but still.... and my response is generally "So I take it you arent familiar with the recent supreme court decision regarding that issue?"    Just had one last night as a matter of fact.  Funny and sad at the same time.  In most cases the answer is actually out there an accessible.  Because someone chooses to stop at the point that suits them doesn't alleviate their responsibility to continue digging for the answer.  


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#16 500F

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 17:26

Excellent, thank you Astro.  Do they actually provide any list of how they define things anywhere? 

 

It feels like they publish so many things in misleading or vague ways just so they have something to stick you with.....or maybe they're just lonely and want to get letters in the mail requesting clarifications

 

14CFR 1.1 Definitions

http://www.ecfr.gov/...1.1_11&rgn=div8






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