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Starting 206L4


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#21 Bootcamp

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 20:39

How is starting an L4 different from starting a B3? Is it just the 12% N1 for introduction of fuel vs. 15%?

 

On that note, how is starting the civilian B3 different from starting a TH-67? How about an OH-58A/C?


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#22 Flying Pig

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 21:27

There no difference between a 58A/C, TH67 and a 206B in starting.


Edited by Flying Pig, 28 June 2014 - 09:56.


#23 rotormandan

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 23:15

If a B3 has the bendix then it's more automatic. If it's a B3 with a ceco modulated start, I think it's more sensitive to heat up fast but also less likely to flame out if you roll back on throttle a bit vs the l3/l4.

#24 helipilotm

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 00:10

How is starting an L4 different from starting a B3? Is it just the 12% N1 for introduction of fuel vs. 15%?
 
On that note, how is starting the civilian B3 different from starting a TH-67? How about an OH-58A/C?

The differences between a B3 and L4 are big. Ceco's are pretty much a thing of the past. There are a few still out there though. On a B3 with a Bendix you roll on throttle to idle and just monitor. If it's setup right the TOT will rise pretty quick to the top of the yellow and the start will be quick.

On a L4 it's modulated start which means your in control of the fuel. Every long ranger I've flown is different. Some you barely move the throttle to light the flame. Others you have to roll on allot more. The L4 we have is aboauletly the easiest starting L model I've flown. We also have 2 L3's. One is almost as good as the L4 the other one is a b@**#. I have 700+ hours and prob 250 ish starts in it and it still tries to fire me every once in awhile. ;).
The only advice I have is go slow and easy until you get comfortable. As you get more turbine time you will learn the little quirks of each machine. Good luck!

Edited by helipilotm, 28 June 2014 - 00:12.

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#25 Gomer Pylot

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:17

Even with a CECO, you start a B the same way - roll the throttle to idle and watch it.  You can supposedly modulate slightly from the idle position with a CECO, but I never had much luck with it.  If the start isn't right when you roll to idle, get maintenance to adjust it.  But I doubt there are many, if any, CECO fuel controls left in use.  We used to have a number of them, and in practice there is no difference in starting.  Run it up to 15%, roll the throttle to idle, press the idle detent to make sure you can roll the throttle off if necessary, and watch.  Kill if if you have to.


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#26 Nearly Retired

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 13:42

Gomer's right: A lot of people think the CECO (Chandler-Evans) gave you a "modulated" start.  They do not.  They do allow *some* adjustment of the TOT, but it ain't much.  It's certainly not modulated in the way the L-1/L-3/L-4 is.

 

And that's the difference between the 206B and 206L-1,3,4 series.  In the B-model the fuel is pretty much On/Off.  In the L-series the TOT is pilot-controlled.

 

In practice it really doesn't matter too much at what N1 speed you introduce fuel, as long as it's above 10% or so (with the N1 increasing at a rapid rate of course).  Any 250-series engine will start okay if you do that - AS LONG AS - you've got a good battery.  Don't ask me how I know. 

 

Also, as Gomer said, if the TOT in either a B or an L tends to routinely go over the redline, call a mechanic and HAVE IT ADJUSTED.  Because it's not right. 

 

Quick story: I was working for PHI, flying an L-1 offshore, an aircraft in which I had (even then) a lot of flight time.  Took a couple of days of workover on another offshore job.  The crewchange for the pilots coincided with the crewchange for four field foremen in New Orleans.  Bring four in, let them meet with their counterparts, then bring four out, dropping three in their fields along the way.

 

I did not have an opportunity to fly this particular ship before jumping in with the foremen.  First time starting it.  So, being cautious, I just crack the throttle open.  BOOM!  TOT goes for the roof.  Ease it back and it signs off.  Crack it open just an RCH and BOOM!  Again the TOT goes for the roof.  Cut if off again.  Dammit!  This went on for four cycles before I got the thing running.  I'm sure all four foremen onboard were thinking, "Who's this noob?"

 

So we finally get out to the platform I'd be living on for the next three days.  I got the mechanic and told him to turn the damn lightoff down.  He was hesitant.  "Uhh, that's the way the guys who fly it regularly like it," he said.  Which is true - offshore you want fast starts to get the blades going quickly.  But that was too hot.  He didn't like it, but he turned it down for me.  Probably turned it back up when I left :-/



#27 helipilotm

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 13:48

Even with a CECO, you start a B the same way - roll the throttle to idle and watch it.  You can supposedly modulate slightly from the idle position with a CECO, but I never had much luck with it.  If the start isn't right when you roll to idle, get maintenance to adjust it.  But I doubt there are many, if any, CECO fuel controls left in use.  We used to have a number of them, and in practice there is no difference in starting.  Run it up to 15%, roll the throttle to idle, press the idle detent to make sure you can roll the throttle off if necessary, and watch.  Kill if if you have to.


See I learned something :) I've never flown one or seen one with a CECO. Good to know thanks fellas!

#28 aeroscout

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 15:47

The intellistart system for the LR series is non modulated...

 

 

A new STC’d product from Honeywell/Altair is Intellistart Plus+. This system performs FADEC-like autostart and full HUMS monitoring for the Rolls-Royce Model 250-C20 and -C30 families of engines found on thousands of Bell 206s, MD 500s, and numerous other aircraft.

Last year, AlliedSignal bought Honeywell and took the Honeywell moniker. Before the purchase, AlliedSignal bought Bendix (manufacturer of the Bendix fuel controls and governors in most Rolls-Royce Model 250 engines), so Honeywell is now the keeper of the knowledge and data about fuel controls and governors for older non-FADEC engines.

These Bendix fuel controls and governors have tens of millions of proven flight hours and very rarely show signs of problems. With the Honeywell Intellistart Plus+, no changes in pilot procedures are required for starting or in flight operation. Intellistart Plus+ stops controlling the fuel flow as soon as the start cycle has ended (60% of N1 RPM). Only the HUMS portion stays alive to perform passive monitoring. As a result, there are no new emergency procedures to master.

I recently performed multiple, quick-succession starts on a Rolls-Royce Model 250-C28 in a Bell LongRanger II equipped with Honeywell’s Intellistart Plus+ system.

Although I never had a hot start in my several thousand hours in turbine helicopters, Intellistart Plus+ convinced me that I had few optimum starts. I did five starts, four of them with the rotors still turning from the previous shutdown.

On all five starts, the TOT climbed quickly to a preprogrammed 783°C (10°C below the 793° mark that begins a 10-second limit) and stabilized right there, plus or minus 2°C, for the duration of the start cycle. The procedure did not require throttle modulation.

On some of the starts, just after ignition at 14% of N1 (or a little higher, if needed to get the residual TOT down to 150°C, according to the flight manual), I immediately rolled the throttle to the flight idle detent using the same technique for starting a JetRanger equipped with the -C20B engine.

Instead of hot starting, the system consistently performed 17-second starts with the TOT pegged at 783°C—far better for the engine than I could ever do with manual modulation.

Try it yourself. The next time you start, see how long the start is and whether the TOT is stabilized or jumps all over the gauge as the mechanical fuel control schedules the fuel into the engine. Older fuel controls do not have any TOT information for their fuel scheduling decisions.

With Intellistart Plus+ or FADEC, a hot start should be a thing of the past. You can still do it if you don’t follow the simple procedures, but it is almost foolproof.

Another benefit of most standard FADECs and Intellistart Plus+ is that they can produce an accurate accounting of flights, starts, torque events, exceedences, and power checks.



#29 rotormandan

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 16:46

I've flown 4 specific jetrangers. 2 at 1 company, 2 at another with about 800 hours total jetranger time.

1 company had a b2 ceco and a b3 bendex. The other company had a b2 bendex and a b3 ceco.

The cecos were definately modulated. If you rolled to idle at 15% it would hot start, no question. With both, at 15% you'd crack the throttle and after the initial tot spike, slowly roll on to keep temp in yellow. If the initial crack was to fast you could reduce throttle and it would slow or stop the needle. In an l3/l4 if you reduce throttle it's usually going to flame out.

With the bendex it didn't matter what you did at 15%. If you barrly cracked the throttle, rolled to or even past idle, it'd start the same.

When I got to the gulf, everyone said there were no modulated starts for jetrangers. I don't know why. During initial traing another pilot and I had to explain to the instructor that that was untrue. This was only a few years ago and we didn't have any jetrangers anymore (phi). But throughout my years at phi I heard the same thing all the time from different pilots. While modulated b models may be rare, they're out there. Maybe the gulf companies didn't use them.

The l3/l4 modulated seems way slower to me then the b2/b3. A slower temp spike and you can't roll back at all, though usually you don't need to.

#30 eagle5

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 19:19

I flew a b3 with the Bendix. Piece of cake to start, especially for my first intro into turbines. Why did they change with the long ranger?

#31 Gomer Pylot

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 20:42

The B models you had with CECO fuel controls that started too hot when the throttle was moved to idle were set up incorrectly.  Too many mechanics really have no idea how the fuel control/governor system works, and too many pilots are willing to live with improperly adjusted controls, or don't have enough experience to know any different.  


Edited by Gomer Pylot, 28 June 2014 - 20:44.

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#32 rotormandan

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 21:00

It's not a setting. The procedure just isn't roll to idle with those. They were modulated starts. What would happen if you rolled an L model to idle instead of cracking the throttle? It'd do a whole lot more then start too hot. It'd go through the roof. Same with these.

I'm not the most experienced, or the most knowledgable, but the couple old guys that taught me in those ships are closing in on their 70's. They've only flown bell 47's and 206's in their whole ag career. One guy usually teaches most mechanics how to work on thoses things. I know they understand those 206's abd would've had the adjustment fixed at some point over the years.

I understand that these arrn't common but these were modulated starts. Not just ship that started warm.

#33 arotrhd

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 22:23

Just to put some perspective for the comments, here's the straight poop from the RFM for whatever it's worth.

 

Attached File  B206L4 RFM 2-18.jpg   232.01KB   7 downloads

 

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#34 aeroscout

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 23:38

Interesting thread. I had no idea it would generate so many interesting and informative replies.



#35 Gomer Pylot

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 11:26

I'm closing in on my 70s too.  It has been a number of years since I flew a B with a CECO fuel control in it, but IIRC the flight manual starting procedure, and the procedure that was taught, was identical with either fuel control.   If someone wants to modify the published procedures, that's up to them, and they have to be willing to accept the consequences.


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#36 Nearly Retired

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 11:28

Rotormandan, I started flying 206's in the late 1970s.  We had both CECO's and Bendix's.  You never knew which FCU a particular ship had.  And it didn't matter, really.  We started them exactly the same way: get to 15% and roll the throttle to idle.  If it went hot then it was set incorrectly.  The advantage of the CECO was that *IF* it went hot (weak battery, really cold OAT) you could squeak it back a bit and bring the TOT under control.  But modulated starts like an L-1?  No way.

 

Same when I went to PHI in 1987 - we still had some CECO's in the fleet.

 

Again, I'm with Gomer.



#37 iChris

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 13:00

I'm closing in on my 70s too.  It has been a number of years since I flew a B with a CECO fuel control in it, but IIRC the flight manual starting procedure, and the procedure that was taught, was identical with either fuel control.   If someone wants to modify the published procedures, that's up to them, and they have to be willing to accept the consequences.

 

 

Rotormandan, I started flying 206's in the late 1970s.  We had both CECO's and Bendix's.  You never knew which FCU a particular ship had.  And it didn't matter, really.  We started them exactly the same way: get to 15% and roll the throttle to idle.  If it went hot then it was set incorrectly.  The advantage of the CECO was that *IF* it went hot (weak battery, really cold OAT) you could squeak it back a bit and bring the TOT under control.  But modulated starts like an L-1?  No way.

 

Same when I went to PHI in 1987 - we still had some CECO's in the fleet.

 

Again, I'm with Gomer.

 

Gomer Pylot and Nearly Retired are correct with their information. If the fuel control was set correctly and you’ve got a good battery, the CECO was as good as the Bendix.

 

Don’t confuse the starting procedures for the Bell 206 with a CECO/Bendix fuel control and 250-C18/C20 engine with that of the Bell 206L with a 250-C28/C30 engine.

 

The 250-C18/C20 uses combination axial/centrifugal stage compression.

 

The 250-C28/C30 uses  single stage centrifugal compression (no axial stages).

 

Again, Don’t equate the same starting procedures to completely different engines.

 

To many have overcomplicated this “modulated” start with a CECO fuel control in the Bell 206B, it’s not complex. If the CECO fuel control was set correctly little if any modulation was required.

 

Don’t forget, this so called term “modulated start” is how you’ve been starting those old AS-350s up through the AS-350B2 all these years.

 

Modulate - To exert a modifying or controlling influence; regulate, adjust, set, modify, moderate 

 

Pagesfrom11_1_zps10148f62.jpg


Edited by iChris, 30 June 2014 - 12:19.

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#38 aeroscout

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 16:49

To me non modulated boils down to a simple step...rolling the throttle directly to the idle stop after achieving nominal N1.



#39 iChris

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 11:57

(Click Photo to enlarge)

Pagesfrom206L4-FM-01-S02_zps35e886e5.jpg


Edited by iChris, 03 July 2014 - 02:25.

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#40 rotormandan

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 18:21

I guess I'm having a hard time with this. I can't find anything that written up about cecos. It seems common knowledge in the world of the internet that cecos are modulated but that doesn't mean it is correct. All I know is that the 2 ceco systems I've used definately had to be modulated. If the systems needed adjustments, then maybe the old guys were ok with that. As far as my experience goes, there's a big difference between the bendix and ceco and that's what I know.




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