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Boomer (Not So) Sooner (more on the pilot shortage) - rebuttal


r22butters

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A recent article in Rotorcraft Pro hints at a shortage of pilots with fat logbooks and of course of the retirement (or maybe not) of Vietnam era pilots (now refered to as baby boomers it seems).

 

As an unemployed pilot my favorite lines would have to be;

 

"Even without the boomers retiring, growing global demand for civil helicopters is already stretching the supply of trained commercial pilots..."

 

and

 

"...it doesn't matter how many people purchase helicopters if there are not enough pilots... to fly them..."

 

The thing is WE ARE OUT THERE! THERE ARE PLENTY OF PILOTS TO FLY ALL THESE HELICOPTERS!

 

The problem is we are all invisible because our logbooks aren't fat enough...and they aren't going to get fat if we cannot find work! I for one am tired of employers telling me to call them after I get some experience,...and this is to fly tourists around in an R-44 for $800 bucks a month! Not to mention competing against hundreds of other low-timers for just one of these slots.

 

You need more pilots with fat logbooks, we need more entry-level jobs!,...but no one ever writes an article about that? <_<

Edited by r22butters
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Butters how much 44 time do you have? I'm in the same boat as you, and employers keep turning telling me they need someone who can instruct in a 44. So, I've been renting a 44 when I have enough saved up to take one out for a couple hours, but I keep seeing CFII openings requiring an instructor with x amount of hours given. It makes me nervous that I'm sinking thousands of dollars into 44 time that won't actually help me, since I'm still at 0 given.

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"We need more entry level jobs" is like a plumber yelling "I need more busted pipes!" You just cant make people need you. This industry is interesting.... When the day comes that the industry really does need more pilots, operators will find ways to sponsor younger pilots, train people they wouldn't normally train.

More entry level jobs isn't going to solve the issue. Because those pilots who have the jobs you ultimately want, will still be in those spots. The only way to solve the problem is to make customers want more helicopters. If I can figure out how to do that, Ill hire you to fly SIC in my personal S92. You'll need to volunteer your time but Ill let you sleep in the hangar rent free. :P

There are people with a much better pulse on the job situation than me, but it seems like flight schools are the entry level pilots worst enemy. They are like China... They keep churning out a product nobody needs, but somehow, companies convince us to keep buying it.... and in a month the batteries are dead and its broke and it ends up lost in the bottom of the toy box. Starting Jan 1, 2015.... Mandated 5 year moratorium on the issuance of any Commercial or CFI Cert. That will fix it. Start back up for 5 years... then another 5 year break. So on and So on.

Edited by Flying Pig
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It certainly is a catch 22 controlled by the insurance companies and the helicopter operators need to keep cost down to maintain growth. Many insurance companies require company X to employ pilots with X number of hours. Anything less than that and the company has to pay more in insurance costs which cuts into profits. If the company needs to train pilots, that's also a loss for the company leading fewer and fewer companies to offer any substantial training. Fewer companies want to pay for training and fewer insurance companies are willing to cover low time pilots leading to a large gap between the lower time pilots and higher time pilots.

 

For example, many utility companies want previous 206 time. Tour companies, the ones that will offer turbine transition, don't fly 206's and I don't believe that many if any utility companies want to train pilots in these ships so there's an example of a gap. Sure you could go to RLC to fly a 206, but they're having trouble keeping profits in the green, reducing training and not hiring as much anymore. Fewer pilots entering through the entry level door and therefore fewer pilots with X amount of hours and experience in the type to take the higher hour jobs. Catch 22.

 

Another ship similar to this is the MD series. Very few companies (if any) offer turbine transition in the MD but most jobs that use the MD want previous MD time. Some companies have MDs that they use for utility work like Papillon and Temsco, but those are (from what I hear) for returning pilots to transition into (Pilots who flew tours previous years and return for a second or third year). These guys aren't major utility companies, they do it on the side with only a handful of ships. So there's a bottleneck that Papillon and Temsco are only training and churning out a small number of pilots where places like Haverfield need tons of guys to operate their large fleet. It's a bottleneck because Haverfield doesn't seem to train their own guys anymore, they used to advertise 1500 and no turbine time and now it's 2500 total and 500 turbine, MD experience and previous LL experience. I'm guessing the insurance company had some say in those numbers, but where are those guys coming from?

 

Pretty much what it comes down to is that a lot of companies and higher ups can see that the problems are coming just like the article says, but their hands are tied and they're stuck hoping that some other companies will bite the bullet to push more pilots into the industry, but most companies are looking at one another to see who it'll be and as long as they're waiting on each other, the problem will keep getting worse until it's out of control.

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Pilots are for the most part transient... always wondering whats over the next hill. Any company knows by training a young guy, all they are doing is training someone else's next pilot.

 

I talked with a local Ag operator and his biggest issue was that he had trained up a couple local Robbie CFIs in his UH1 and his B206 because they had sold him on the idea that they were locals and wanted to stay in the area. He was getting older and was looking at the idea of just running the company and letting some young pilots have the chance to get into the industry. He put a significant amount of training into them which was primarily on jobs where he would let them fly while he supervised. Occasionally some solo work in the B206s. 2-3yrs later.... they have long since moved on. So in short... they never made him any money as employees. However he DID pay them while they flew with him. Not sure if they thanked him on the way out or not. Now, in the defense of the pilots, there wasnt enough work to make a living either. So its a sticky situation all the way around.

Edited by Flying Pig
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Butters how much 44 time do you have? I'm in the same boat as you, and employers keep turning telling me they need someone who can instruct in a 44. So, I've been renting a 44 when I have enough saved up to take one out for a couple hours, but I keep seeing CFII openings requiring an instructor with x amount of hours given. It makes me nervous that I'm sinking thousands of dollars into 44 time that won't actually help me, since I'm still at 0 given.

 

I have close to 100 in the R-44, but my problem is much worse than the average pilot who isn't hired by the school who trained him since I am not (nor will I ever be) a CFI.

 

You are right though, employers want work experience. Even an R-44 tour operator who hires at 500 hours and does absolutely no instruction values 300 hours of dual given over 300 hours of just giving rides to freinds and family while renting (no matter how complex and busy the airspace you fly in).

 

Assuming you have the R-22 time, don't waste any more money on the R-44 past the 25 hours you need to teach in it (although getting your instrument or CFII in it would be better than just renting).

 

Your best bet may be to try Old City Helicopters in Florida. I hear they'll hire a 200 hour pilot with just 20 in the R-44 to fly tours.

 

:)

Edited by r22butters
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I got hired for my first helicopter industry job with 100 hours and a wet commercial license in my pocket. I mowed grass, scooped dog poop, did maintenance on the owners cars, did maintenance on the helicopters, fueling helicopters, briefed and loaded passengers and generally all around worked my arse off. I was then given the opportunity to ferry the aircraft back and forth from the main base earning a 44 transition in the process. After getting positive reviews from his CFIs I then was allowed to start giving tours which was not a given when I started the season.

 

So the question is - why do you feel that you deserve to be hired directly into a flying position without proving your worth to the company ? Secondly - why are you limiting yourself to only non CFI jobs, if I could afford to get my CFI I would work as one in a New York Minute.

 

It seems as if your situation is self-imposed.

 

Lastly, a good friend of mine whom I worked with this past summer - just retired this year and he was a Vietnam pilot.

 

Don't get me wrong I do empathize with you but there comes a point where you got to get it done no matter how it gets done and quite frankly you just don't seem to be willing to do so.

 

Also I have five friends who all made it into the industry without ever working as a CFI who have a similar experience as I have. In all cases we all beat the bushes over and over and all swept hangars, washed aircraft, mowed grass etc etc etc.

 

I'm going to go ahead and guess you have no military background ? A lot of the aviation industry is filled with prior military and proving yourself willing to do anything to get it, is pretty much standard fare among that crowd.

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So enlighten us as to why you won't ever be a CFI? I'm sure you've said it but I forgot.

 

Thanks for the interests, but I've already beat that horse to death,...and then some!

 

The important fact to take away (or possibly debate) is that not everyone is cut out to be a teacher, yet we all (at least most of us that is) have to if we want to succeed.

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Free associating-

The good news is that the Vietnam era pilot supply is ending and will be history in 5 years. The pilots of the Silver State era who are working now are probably in for long careers as the Vietnam era guys leave. Anybody else... was probably born at the wrong time, there ain't gonna be a 1970s-type expansion to put them to work.

More bad news is that the Army is shrinking and moving to UAVs simultaneously. There are some pilots separated from that soon to be reduced force that won't work in the civilian world. But, there are enough well trained can-do types that will do so that competition will be tougher than at present for a decade or so in a static helo market.

Odd thing is that some of the separated military guys will have to get CFI/II certs to continue in the profession, good news for that side of the industry, except that I think those vets will be even less likely to continue as instructors than we Vietnam types were.

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I am one of those pilots. I got told a couple weeks ago there will be no new airframe for me, so I have a couple years left at best. I'm absolutely going to try and get my CFI/II, and my wife and I are coming up with a plan that will allow me to teach if I can find a job doing it. I'll go back to loading bags and fueling and cleaning hangars if it will get me a seat flying something.

Edited by SBuzzkill
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I am one of those pilots. I got told a couple weeks ago there will be no new airframe for me, so I have a couple years left at best. I'm absolutely going to try and get my CFI/II, and my wife and I are coming up with a plan that will allow me to teach if I can find a job doing it. I'll go back to loading bags and fueling and cleaning hangars if it will get me a seat flying something.

Sorry to hear that. Have you looked into using your GI Bill for flight training? You can get your CFI paid for or even branch into fixed wing on the VA's dime.

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I am likely going to be one of those pilots leaving the Army, though by choice.

 

I see a lot of opportunities on the horizon for those with the hours - I realize I am not saying anything new here.

 

Take Fort Rucker for instance. We have a lot of civilian instructors in the primary division (B206/TH67) that are getting old. Not trying to be mean, but some of them can't stand up straight and walk with a limp. We have hoards of them. At the same time we are transitioning from the TH-67 to the LUH-72 for primary training. If you think that those old timers will be eager to transition into a glass cockpit twin engine aircraft to maybe fly 1 or 2 more years you are wrong. Some will, many will not. Many, including some I have talked to here, see that as a retirement notice. Despite a downturn in the total number of new aviators being trained, there will be a number of openings for transitioning military aviators (and some civilian CFIs) that have instructor ratings.

 

Personally, if I do elect to get out in a couple of years, I will be closing in on 3000 hours with the majority of that >12,500, multi-eng, turbine time, with NVG experience and a hundred hours of actual instrument time and a college degree to boot. While I try to remain humble, I am not too worried about the prospect of getting a job either because along with the experience I also have a strong work ethic.

 

I know how it sucks to be a low time piston guy. Being that guy at the very time of the Silver State fiasco is what drove me back into the military. It is something that I didn't really want to do at the time but am very glad that I went for. That's kind of the whole point here. I did something that wasn't in my initial plan and have now set myself up for what I am sure will be success. If anyone is going to break out of the crowd of low timers they are going to have to do whatever it takes to succeed. If they aren't, there are many others around them that will.

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I've casually looked at it but really haven't researched using it. We have been incredibly busy lately preparing for all the exercises this fall that need to happen before the snow hits that I haven't had much time to sit down and plan for the future.

 

Some of the private universities out there have pretty decent fixed wing programs if you decide to go that way, they do pretty well at getting students to 1500 hours FW time by hiring you as an IP and then hook you up with a regional airline job when you get that ATP done. There's not a lot of well run programs like that though, and they usually cost more than the GI Bill pays.

 

The public schools don't seem to help you out as much but they cost a lot less, Kansas State has FW and RW schools if you don't mind living in Kansas. GI Bill covers it all though.

 

Shoot me a PM if have any questions, I just got out of the army and have been doing a lot of research lately on how to best use my GI Bill.

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Shoot me a PM if have any questions, I just got out of the army and have been doing a lot of research lately on how to best use my GI Bill.

Hopefully part of that research has been to attend the upcoming Heli-Success weekend in Vegas...and especially the military to civilian portion...

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I am one of those pilots. I got told a couple weeks ago there will be no new airframe for me, so I have a couple years left........

 

I'm sorry to hear that there will be no follow-on transition for you.....

 

I am just curious, can you give me a snap-shot of your (soon to be) resume? Thanks,

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No problem, nothing spectacular here which is why this is gonna be a hard hit.

As of right now I am sitting at:

 

920 hours total time.

850 hours total RW.

270 NVG

40 night unaided

30 hood + lots of simulator time

160 hours PC (by the Army definition)

150 hours cross country

 

 

~100 hours in Bell 206 and OH-58A/C. The rest is 58D time which is comparable I assume to the 407. Lots of low level, high DA/gross weight, some mountain time, hovering OGE in various conditions, lots of time working sensors and some photography as well.

 

Like I said above I haven't had much time to work out my conversions like PIC time and all that. I have been logging by Army definitions although in my remarks I keep accurate descriptions of my flights. I'm still a bit confused as to what can be logged as PIC and what most employers will accept but eventually I'll get all that worked out. There are plenty of threads on here on the subject :)

 

By the time I get out of the Army I should be sitting around 1,200 total time, 350 NVG, 50 hours unaided, and 50 hood.

Edited by SBuzzkill
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Hopefully part of that research has been to attend the upcoming Heli-Success weekend in Vegas...and especially the military to civilian portion...

 

I hadn't planned to attend but definitely will spread the word. When is the Heli-Success?

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The problem is we are all invisible because our logbooks aren't fat enough...and they aren't going to get fat if we cannot find work! I for one am tired of employers telling me to call them after I get some experience,...and this is to fly tourists around in an R-44 for $800 bucks a month! Not to mention competing against hundreds of other low-timers for just one of these slots.

 

You need more pilots with fat logbooks, we need more entry-level jobs!,...but no one ever writes an article about that? <_<

 

It's not the employer's obligation to get you experience. That's your problem.

 

You come to the table unqualified. Those of us who have been working and continue to work managed; why not you?

 

We've been through this before. Your ability to get employed is dependent upon your willingness to put forth the effort.

 

Butters how much 44 time do you have? I'm in the same boat as you, and employers keep turning telling me they need someone who can instruct in a 44. So, I've been renting a 44 when I have enough saved up to take one out for a couple hours, but I keep seeing CFII openings requiring an instructor with x amount of hours given. It makes me nervous that I'm sinking thousands of dollars into 44 time that won't actually help me, since I'm still at 0 given.

 

 

Then go get more than 0 given. What's the rush to instruct in the R44 when you haven't instructed in the R22? You're busy renting airplanes at a ridiculous expense to yourself, when it will do little or no good. This isn't a problem on the part of the employer. You simply haven't done what you need to do in the first place, which is to get busy doing basic instruction.

 

By the time you get done renting your R44, you'll still have zero hours of instruction given.

 

The 19 year old kid who rocks up to your front door wanting instruction may not know enough or be bold enough when using daddy's money or a loan to ask for the most experienced instructor, but most adults will be, and won't be satisfied with a zero time wet behind the ears kid...especially for R44 instruction when the cost of rental is already so high. If you've got a few hours of R44 time that you bought, it doesn't really make up for lack of experience, and you'll need to get that before you can be considered any kind of commodity or asset to an employer (or client).

 

How far are you willing to move to get that job instructing, and how qualified are you to do it? Are you a CFII? If not, why not? How far are you willing to go to look for work? How many resumes have you sent out, and how many employers have you contacted? Why aren't you working for the school where you did your training? If you have additional training to do, why don't you do it at a school where you can be hired? Schools prefer to hire their own students; it makes the school look good and the students are already inculcated in school procedures and practices.

 

I have close to 100 in the R-44, but my problem is much worse than the average pilot who isn't hired by the school who trained him since I am not (nor will I ever be) a CFI.

 

 

Again, it comes down to whether you're willing to do what it takes.

 

You're not. Case closed.

Edited by avbug
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He or she says he's not cut out for it.

 

On the one hand, I can certainly respect the fact that there are those who ought not be flight instructing; I've met more than a few instructors who really aren't.

 

On the other hand, unless you're flying a single seat aircraft, you're in a crew environment all the time, and cockpit resource and crew resource management are important all the time. It may be the passenger in the front or rear seat. It may be a lot of things, but it you don't have the basic skills that an instructor is required to possess, whether or not you're instructing, then you're at a distinct disadvantage in most jobs.

 

When I went to my first Part 135 job, I'd already worked as an agricultural aviator and several other things, before instructing...then moving on to Part 135. I was surprised on day one to learn that each of the other thirty guys in the room were also instructors. Most places I've worked, nearly everyone is or was an instructor, with the exception of some military aviators (and many of those have been IP's at one point or another).

 

When one comes to the table as a newly minted pilot, one brings essentially nothing. Fresh, wet certificates, no experience, no background, no knowledge aside from what was read in a book or magazine, or what was passed on by the last wet behind the ears instructor. What do you expect? The world to fall at your feet and worship? Should the world owe you something, and a prospective employer fall over to meet your needs? Beggars cannot be choosers, and at this stage in your career, you are decidedly a beggar. Get used to it.

 

You may not be instructor material right now. It may be a new skill to you. Big deal.

 

You had to learn to preflight, and you had to learn to read a chart. You had to learn to plan a cross country, talk to air traffic control, and do a host of other things that were foreign to you when you began training. Why should instructing be any different. The instructor certificate is NOT a pilot certificate. It's a teaching certificate for instructing others in the finer points of flying an aircraft. It's new skill, new ground, for many people. So you can fly an airplane or helicopter. So what? Can you explain it, teach it, expound on it, and explore your craft enough to help others understand it? That's a flight instructor.

 

You don't think this skill will be important when you are flying a two pilot cockpit? How about when you're moving up the ladder in the 135 operation or corporate department, and now you're in line for a check airman position, or that of Chief Pilot? The ability to fly from the other seat, to see weaknesses and find ways to help others overcome them, to be more situationally aware than simply driving the aircraft, is what it's about and it's a skill and ability that expands far beyond riding around the pattern with a student. It's something that goes into your later years in the business, too.

 

I was part of a double crew flying a large aircraft into Kabul a few years ago. I had the leg back out of Afghanistan, and the other crew was flying in. I slept most of the way into Afghanistan, only to be awakened by the sound of speed brakes and a lot of vibration and rumbling. That meant arrival in Kabul. It was dark, and I could feel from some turbulence that we were close to the mountains. The speed brakes retracted, then extended again. THAT got my attention, and when it happened once more, I headed for the cockpit.

 

The captain was frustrated, not situationally aware, and having systems problems. I poked my head between the seats and asked what was up. Autopilot kept disconnecting, couldn't hold altitude, trim problem, appeared to be a flight control issue, and it appeared to be getting worse. Couldn't track nav, may have nav equipment problems, and oh, by the way, we're vectors, mountains, and now not entirely aware of position.

 

From my position the problem was fairly clear, and working with the captain and crew, we resolved the issue, set up for a coupled approach inbound, and at crew request, I remained there until we were on the ground and taxiing back. The method used to identify the problem and help the crew handle it (captain hadn't been in the seat for a LONG time...sitting reserve, he kept going back for sim training, and was more than a little rusty in the seat) were instructor techniques that were familar and comfortable to all. Not a big deal. Easily dealt with, but a simple example of one of many in which having an instructor background or experience can be applied to daily operations. This is true no matter what kind of flying your'e doing, whether it's firefighting, news, corporate operations, heliskiing, gulf of mexico, or like we were that night, flying a 747 into a hostile area. The principles and application are the same, and it's something that's well worth earning early in your career as you'll use it again and again.

 

Early in my career, in fact as a teen fresh out of high school, I'd learned a lot of tricks of the trade in my flying; very seat of the pants kind of work. When I came back to instruct later, the young lady with whom I was working toward my instructor certification was aghast at some of the methods and techniques that I used. She made a very important point that's stuck with me to this day, and that was that if I intended to teach a student, my flying had better be consistent. That is to say, I couldn't go out and fly one way on a fire or a field, then come back and try to hold the student to a different practice or standard. Students would see the inconsistency. Someone is always watching. It comes out. Then students try to mimic what they've seen, and it can lead to practices or habits that are bad for the student. Could even get someone hurt or killed. Learn to fly as an instructor in all your ways that befits you as the instructor and benefits the student. Short answer to a long story; makes you more professional in your approach to your flying, when you don't do anything in private that you wouldn't allow your student to see in public. Another word for that is honesty in your flying. Also integrity.

 

You're not expected to be an instructor overnight; it's something you learn, and in my opinion, you should go well beyond that. Anyone can be an instructor with a little training, if they're willing to listen and learn. Instructors are a dime a dozen; teachers are not.

 

A teacher may be one of the least appreciated and most underutilized commodities known to man. We are taught at every juncture of our lives, from proper operation of our own bodies on the toilet to driving a car to flying an aircraft, to table manners, to math. An instructor administers a syllabus. A teacher helps a student realize his or her potential by guiding the student through the learning process, even tailoring it it ways that motivate and encourage the student. If you're going to do it at all, do it well, and that means learning to teach, not just instruct. There is a great gulf of difference between the two.

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