Boomer (Not So) Sooner (more on the pilot shortage) - rebuttal

[SBuzzkill]

They have already evaluated us for retraining and the lists were put out about a month ago. A little over 300 pilots were selected for transitions. Of those not selected for transitions our options are pretty limited. SOAR, UAVs, Lakota, or become civilians. There aren't many slots for the first three.

 

I've talked to my friends here and most of them intend to at least attempt to continue flying. I certainly do. I'd say your predictions are correct Lyn.

 

Also, the other airframes are over strength in certain areas which is going to make promotions pretty dang competitive which is going to drive out even more pilots. W2 -> W3 is probably where you're going to see the greatest number leaving, and that is right about the 1000-2000 range for an Army Aviator.

Edited October 31, 2014 by SBuzzkill

[r22butters]

 

 

Thanks again for starting this thread, it has been most interesting.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

[d10]

I guess another option I never considered is that the Army procures a new replacement scout platform, but what would that be and plus . . . the Army does nothing fast.

 

They've considered several options over the last 10 years and none of them worked out. As of now there aren't any plans for another Army airframe.

[urs151]

Just a follow-up post about the layoffs at Ft. Rucker. Currently, eight layoffs this month in Primary. I'm hearing upwards of twelve in Advanced over the next two months. Class size has been reduced to 34

[robszabo]

I'm glad things have worked out for you.

 

If by "working out for you," you mean "worked your tail off and made huge sacrifices to make it happen," then yes, things worked out very well for Jaybee, just as they can for you.

[Whistler]

Just a follow-up post about the layoffs at Ft. Rucker. Currently, eight layoffs this month in Primary. I'm hearing upwards of twelve in Advanced over the next two months. Class size has been reduced to 34

will URS remain the contractor in charge of primary training when the Lakota transition is made? do you think their hiring requirements will go up since it's a more complicated airframe? I've been waiting for URS to start hiring again for a while and if they are laying people off it looks like I might continue to wait for a while... that will only give me more time and make me more competitive though when they do start hiring again.

[apacheguy]

will URS remain the contractor in charge of primary training when the Lakota transition is made? do you think their hiring requirements will go up since it's a more complicated airframe? I've been waiting for URS to start hiring again for a while and if they are laying people off it looks like I might continue to wait for a while... that will only give me more time and make me more competitive though when they do start hiring again.

 

The contract is renegotiated periodically. If URS wants to keep the contract they'll have to bid accordingly.

[cburg]

"Bid 'em low and watch 'em grow."

[urs151]

Yes, URS still has the contract. The first group of IP's to go through the transition is still on schedule for October 2015.

[brian74]

The Kiowa crowd leaving the Army soon is no joke. Fortunately for them, they typically build hours faster in that airframe than other aiframes and their "low hour" guys will be competitive force in the 1000-2000 hr range.

 

On another note, has anyone any knowledge of a full IPC coming available anytime soon for the LUH?

[CharyouTree]

The Kiowa crowd leaving the Army soon is no joke. Fortunately for them, they typically build hours faster in that airframe than other aiframes and their "low hour" guys will be competitive force in the 1000-2000 hr range.

 

On another note, has anyone any knowledge of a full IPC coming available anytime soon for the LUH?

 

4 week courses at EAATS. Course Number: 011-2C-F128 (UH-72A) (T)

 

There's also a combined AQC/IP course at Rucker.

[OGE]

 

I have close to 100 in the R-44, but my problem is much worse than the average pilot who isn't hired by the school who trained him since I am not (nor will I ever be) a CFI.

 

What exactly is your problem? The one you're referring to.

Instruction sucks, I don't care how much some claim that they like doing it. They're talking sh*te. Show me any instructor who would rather spend 2 hours ground teaching Airspace for the 100th time and 1.5 hours flight training teaching normal take offs and normal approaches to the 100th student, than instead be spending half that time doing something like a pipeline patrol.

Yeah we all would much rather be doing some real flying (yeah wtf is that) than instructing.

The ones that claim they like instructing are the ones that don't have to do it.

 

So forgive me for being direct but guys like you p*ss me off. I'm pretty irritated so I might just as well get it out.

You whine about what you want and don't want, as if you have the luxury of choice, when there are many instructors out there struggling to get jobs. Good pilots that would do anything to get a CFI opportunity. Flying is a job yes but it's also a privilege. I was a CFII at an absolute sh*thole of a flight school. I got treated like crap but I put up with it. I didn't like instructing either, in fact I was somewhere between hated it and meh. The only part of instruction I loved was IFR training because it mostly meant I got somewhat intelligent students who could usually speak something that resembled English and flying the 44 is just so much more comfortable. 1000 hrs in a R22 will not do your back much good... My student first pass rate was 99% - one muppet just simply couldn't take the pressure so no biggie, he did well the second time around. I endured, yes endured because most if it was absolute torture. The bad management, bad treatment of instructors, dishonesty, shady dealings (I could go on and on) at the school I trained and taught was despicable. But I got my hours and moved on to greater things. Now I get to do all sorts of flying. And I get to do a tad of instruction, when I want to.

And guess what. Being an instructor will make you a much better pilot than what you think you are. I'm going to take a guess here that you're one of those guys who think they're an excellent pilot? Almost guaranteed you simply are not nearly the pilot you think you are. Most of the pilots that think instructing doesn't improve your skills big time were not instructors - we instructors know that it's true, it's really as simple as that.

Allow me to take one more guess. You're one of those guys who are picky about where you fly, right? You want to fly where the weather is nice and comfy, not too hot, not too cold, you don't like too much wind, you never want to get your hands dirty. Am I close?

The typical roadmap as we all know is train, teach, fly fat tourists up and down the ditch in the Canyon, and then maybe EMS or whatever. Flying the ditch sucks. No one wants to do that either but it's one way to build turbine time.

I think you need a reality check. Stop b*tching and quit being Cinderella.

 

PS: No actually don't quit whining. As long as you're doing that and not out there busting your butt, the guys who deserve those spots will be out there getting them.

[r22butters]

Same reason I'm not taking pictures for Boatpix,...severe motion sickness when I'm not the one wiggling the stick.

 

I would teach if I could.

[avbug]

Interesting.

 

I loved flying the Grand Canyon. Every time I went out, I felt fortunate to be there. People pay good money to go do that, and they were paying me to be a tourist. Go figure.

 

I enjoy instructing, too. Imagine that.

 

Those that find it something nearly unbearable, to be endured, probably don't have a bright future in a crew cockpit environment. Or as a company instructor, standardization/evaluation pilot, or check airman, later in their career.

 

Instructing isn't "real flying?" Really?

[OGE]

Oh here we go, the antagonist has to chirp in. OK then let's see.

 

Interesting.

 

I loved flying the Grand Canyon. Every time I went out, I felt fortunate to be there. People pay good money to go do that, and they were paying me to be a tourist. Go figure.

 

So you loved driving... i mean flying a bus? Good for you, golf clap, you're the only one. Unless the good money the people were paying ended up in your pocket because last time I checked, which was very recently the money is still pretty poor. Unless you're fortunate to have a pair of b00bs and therefore managed to get actual tips. So which is it? Or you're just talking out of your arse, fancy that!?

 

I enjoy instructing, too. Imagine that.

 

Let me guess, you don't have to do it. Gasp what a revelation?!

Here's a cookie.

 

Those that find it something nearly unbearable, to be endured, probably don't have a bright future in a crew cockpit environment. Or as a company instructor, standardization/evaluation pilot, or check airman, later in their career.

 

Clearly and thankfully my ambitions exceed yours by a bunch, so not worried, but thanks!

 

 

Instructing isn't "real flying?" Really?

 

Yes really.

Demonstration, and then later on spending the majority of the time being safety pilot and guarding the controls I do not consider real flying. I could elaborate on what I consider real flying but I don't want to blow your mind, you might get over excited.

[avbug]

You sound like a fairly young, inexperienced, spoiled aviator with a piss poor attitude.

 

How far have your "ambitions" carried you thus far?

 

Do you actually have anything positive to say? Thus far you can't seem to type without whining about how much you hate what you do and what you've done.

 

By all means, tell me what you consider "real" flying.

[Fred0311]

Not trying to fan any flames here but I enjoy instruction. I get to share my love of aviation with other people and it really is something when you see the lightbulb come on. I'm pretty lucky in that I get to fly a lot, and it's around some impressive terrain. The maneuvers may be repetitive but I have a variety of airports and training areas to keep things fresh.

[Wally]

From the HEMS side-

I noticed on my employers open position list that at least 4 seats of a dozen or so bases (4 pilots each and various relief pilot seats) in the state are open.

I just did a review of the last 6 months pilot duty in my program, and 1/3 of the bases have had senior pilots leave in that period. When I say 'senior', I mean Vietnam era or contemporary, between a third and half of our pilot force. It is happening, it has been happening, and will continue for the next 5 years when that body will finally be a rare minority. If you're not ready, that train will leave without you.

[aeroscout]

I think guys should be able to come on to the forum and rant, as long as they're not engaging in personal attacks. I don't think they should be accosted for their viewpoints.

I like reading the rants. I like to see how common certain frustrations are. Chances are more than one of us has gone through the same phase or will at some point.

Some frustrations go with the game. It's a level of stress you just have to learn to manage or live with.

But there are others that can be addressed and or alleviated.

Having the ability to keep a finger on the pulse of the industry is nice.

I equally like to hear about the satisfiers, the perks, the bonuses real and intangible about our chosen profession.

But you don't hear about them so much.

[Wally]

As posted by OGE, I found instructing to be tedious. I also found it to be immensely rewarding, to the point that I kinda felt guilty accepting payment. I met some great people (students) and learned more in teaching the individual than even my most dedicated efforts could transfer to them, flying is essentially very simple, what the teacher does is illustrate and assist in practice. The instructor gains in finding different new ways to address and demonstrate that principle in a very short period.

[Whistler]

You sound like a fairly young, inexperienced, spoiled aviator with a piss poor attitude.

 

How far have your "ambitions" carried you thus far?

 

Do you actually have anything positive to say? Thus far you can't seem to type without whining about how much you hate what you do and what you've done.

 

By all means, tell me what you consider "real" flying.

Avbug I like you. But I just wanted to point out that nearly every time there is a flame war on this site you are involved in some capacity. You don't always start it but you always get incolved. I think you love it. You aren't a complainer and you are full of solid advice... but you love to get high and mighty on people. Just an observation.

[Spike]

I didn’t fully appreciate flight instruction until I found myself unemployed and re-entered the sector. After that, I found instruction to be rewarding. Plus, it’s the one of the few jobs that provides freedom to dictate how, when, where the flight will occur. After instruction, the freedom decreases as you move through a career as the jobs dictate when, where and how you will fly….. Shoot, for some jobs, it invades on your personal time and personal life, with little to no compensation and that sucks!…… The reality is, some of the jobs out in here the real world “suck” worse than any instruction job…. To include deadly….

To each his own………

In the end, if you don’t like what you’re doing, then step aside cuz there is a crap load of qualified people who will appreciate the job and, good luck finding that job you “like” because each one of them have a downside……

Edited November 15, 2014 by Spike

[Whistler]

I didn’t fully appreciate flight instruction until I found myself unemployed and re-entered the sector. After that, I found instruction to be rewarding. Plus, it’s the one of the few jobs that provides freedom to dictate how, when, where the flight will occur. After instruction, the freedom decreases as you move through a career as the jobs dictate when, where and how you will fly….. Shoot, for some jobs, it invades on your personal time and personal life, with little to no compensation and that sucks!…… The reality is, some of the jobs out in here the real world “suck” worse than any instruction job…. To include deadly….

 

To each his own………

 

In the end, if you don’t like what you’re doing, then step aside cuz there is a crap load of qualified people who will appreciate the job and, good luck finding that job you “like” because each one of them have a downside……

Bingo. I loved the freedom and autonomy of flight instruction. It's as close as recreational flying as you can get and get paid for most of us in this industry. Sure, you are stuck in a 22 or a 44 all day and that sucks... but at least you know you are proficient in your EP's. And you are producing something tangible... you are making pilots. If you don't find that rewarding there may be something wrong with you.

[r22butters]

From the HEMS side-

I noticed on my employers open position list that at least 4 seats of a dozen or so bases (4 pilots each and various relief pilot seats) in the state are open.

I just did a review of the last 6 months pilot duty in my program, and 1/3 of the bases have had senior pilots leave in that period. When I say 'senior', I mean Vietnam era or contemporary, between a third and half of our pilot force. It is happening, it has been happening, and will continue for the next 5 years when that body will finally be a rare minority. If you're not ready, that train will leave without you.

 

They said the same thing at the first Helisuccess,...how many years ago was that now?

 

By the way, when is the next date the world will end? They keep changing that one too.

 

By the by the way, I've seen those job openings too. Every time I go to the job boards. Sometimes on jsfirm the whole page will be just HEMS,...and its been that way for years now,...but it only seems to be in HEMS? No one else ever posts such mass openings, so I'm lead to believe that the rest of the industry is doing just fine.

 

Maybe no one really likes flying HEMS?

Edited November 15, 2014 by r22butters

[Wally]

 

They said the same thing at the first Helisuccess,...how many years ago was that now?

 

By the way, when is the next date the world will end? They keep changing that one too.

 

By the by the way, I've seen those job openings too. Every time I go to the job boards. Sometimes on jsfirm the whole page will be just HEMS,...and its been that way for years now,...but it only seems to be in HEMS? No one else ever posts such mass openings, so I'm lead to believe that the rest of the industry is doing just fine.

 

Maybe no one really likes flying HEMS?

 

Last point first: "Maybe no one really likes flying HEMS?" HEMS pilots like it and stay forever or are gone in a year or two. I'm in the senior quarter of the seniority list at 14 years. I know lots of guys with 20 years and some with 30+. Not enough flying for me, but hey- I only have 11k+, what do I know? I know it beats lots of other jobs and certainly better than being outside looking in.

 

I don't know about JS Firm, but our open positions list has held at about 40-50 since I've tracked it, a decade or so. I have to say "held at about" because it used to be 2 lists, internal bidding and external hire positions. By the way, I don't expect the program seats to be uncovered very long.

 

The point is and was that time ticks on. At one time 75% of the pilots I worked with were Vietnam vets, now less than half are even Vietnam era. They are not making any more and those of us left will be leaving soon. The Army is making fewer ad keeping a higher percentage these days (except 58 drivers, which will be a force to contend with in the years t come).

There is no hard limit I can cite, bu I can count on my fingers the number of 70+ year old pilots I've worked with in 46 years. That's pretty much all the Vietnam guys and contemporaries in the next 4-5 years. It is happening.

 

P.S. The world will end when I don't do preflight adequately. I'm doing all I can to continue existence, so buy me a beer.

 

Edit- crappy spelling, but I've got things to do right now.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Wally