r22butters Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 I caught part of an old movie yesterday. John Wayne and Robert Stack were flying from Honolulu to San Francisco. After an incident, Stack (who was the pilot) came to realize that they wouldn't be able to make it all the way, and therefore would have to eventually ditch. As the crew prepares, John Wayne takes over for the co-pilot. Eventually he decides that they might make it, and wants to give it a shot. Stack, on the other hand, won't hear of it, and is determined to ditch. Just as he begins to, the Duke leans over, smacks him up a few times, then takes over the controls!,...it was frick'n awesome! So, how do you guys handle differences of opinion in the 2-man cockpit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Pretty much just like the Duke 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotdogs Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Yup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d10 Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 I like to say that one of us will have the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight. You can figure out who this will be before the flight and have both pilots agree to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akscott60 Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 CRM (ACT-E) Everyone gets a say. One person is the final authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 I make my copilot ride in the back. Once he does the preflight, makes my coffee, and loads the passengers, I don't need him until after we land. I use the copilot seat to put my laptop on so I can watch movies during the flight. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 It was a movie, and a John Wayne movie at that. Any relation to reality is purely coincidental, and entirely unintended. In the real world, you have to get along, but the PIC is legally responsible for the flight, and what he says goes. As the SIC, you just have to live with it. I've been in a few really miserable cockpits, and all I could do was put up with it. When I made PIC I tried to make sure my cockpit wasn't miserable. Being an a**hole is not a requirement for being PIC, although some people seem to think it is. But they're assholes wherever they are. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom22 Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Hi Butters, here is a 625-page book on the subject: Wiener, E., Kanki, B., & Helmreich, R. (2010). Crew resource management (2nd ed.). San Diego, CA: Academic Press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 (edited) A good strategy to employ is to try to figure out who the FAA will say is PIC after a crash. It's often not very obvious. Almost always it's the most experienced pilot on board. Many times it's not the pilot owner. More than once a situation like that has bitten an experienced pilot who just went along on a flight with the owner or renter. edit sp Edited November 1, 2014 by aeroscout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 It depends on the sector. That is, as a true blue SIC, the PIC is the person who has the final authority. If the PIC understands how crew management works, he or she will create an environment of cooperation through leadership principles. However, if the egotistical maniac sitting next to you, out ranks you in some form or fashion, there is no “crew management”. From there, it becomes pure hostility and there is nothing you can do about it short of quitting….. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I caught part of an old movie yesterday. John Wayne and Robert Stack were flying from Honolulu to San Francisco. After an incident, Stack (who was the pilot) came to realize that they wouldn't be able to make it all the way, and therefore would have to eventually ditch. As the crew prepares, John Wayne takes over for the co-pilot. Eventually he decides that they might make it, and wants to give it a shot. Stack, on the other hand, won't hear of it, and is determined to ditch. Just as he begins to, the Duke leans over, smacks him up a few times, then takes over the controls!,...it was frick'n awesome! So, how do you guys handle differences of opinion in the 2-man cockpit? The scene from The High and the Mighty that you've described is shown in nearly every crew resource management training class, at almost every level, and a humorous and textbook example of the exact opposite of a crew environment. Every flight has a pilot in command. That individual is responsible for the safety of the fight and holds the ultimate authority. A good PIC uses and listens to his SIC. It's not common that one encounters a situation with a bad PIC. I've encountered a few, but very few. I've also had a few unacceptable copilot/first officers, but again, very few. In most cases, two pilot crews come professionally trained, and tend to operate on a professional level. This is usually first learned early in one's career as a flight instructor, where one has the first crack at dealing with cockpit and crew resource management in a management capacity. By the time one gets to a two or three man cockpit, all training is done as a crew, much of which is abnormal and emergency procedures. My personal philosophy in a crew environment is that the most conservative opinion wins. If you are comfortable with a situation but I am not, we're not doing it. If I'm comfortable, but you're not, we're not doing it. I expect a copilot/first officer to speak up; I'm looking for honest input, and don't want someone who tries to play politics or say what he or she thinks needs to be said. From a copilot/first officer perspective, you'll always fly with pilots who, even when operating with standard operating procedures, still come to the table with personal techniques and practices. The biggest complaint among copilots is that they're never quite sure what the captain/PIC is going to do or want. My solution to that as a captain/PIC has been to operate as close as possible to the company standard:it's established for a reason. I have had a PIC accept turns in holding when we needed to divert. I responded to ATC and advised that we'd take one more turn and then divert, minimum fuel. We got priority, and landed. I had a PIC demand that we take on no fuel and make a return leg; I threatened to quit and catch a commercial flight home, and let him explain why the aircraft was stuck. He had a reputation for pushing fuel to the limit, and I wasn't about to take it. One one occasion in a Learjet, I was assigned to fly with a new captain who was questionable at best. During a descent into Portland, he deployed the speed brakes and slowed well below our minimum unconfigured speed, and showed no signs of recovering as he approached he assigned altitude. He became catatonic, and I had to pry him off the controls. I took the aircraft. Shortly after he regained his general awareness. His situation was one that's covered in CRM training, involving the two-challenge rule. Where challenge and response interactions are conducted, if the other crew member is challenged once with no response, challenge again. If no response is received, and no valid obvious or known reason exists, take over. In that case, he was PIC, but no longer responsive. On another occasion when landing in a Piaggio Avanti at Las Vegas, a very weak F/O was conducting the approach. He attempted to make the first runway access at the approach end, and locked the wheels. The airplane has carbon fiber brakes and no antiskid. He lost control, and despite being told to get off the brakes (and controls, he held them down. I physically removed him and recovered, then taxied clear. It doesn't matter what type aircraft, or if VFR or IFR. A crew needs to have a clear understanding of their role and an understanding of what to expect from the rest of the crew. Nearly all issues in flight are best handled with thorough briefing and discussion before departure. There should be no surprises with regard to the handling and conduct of the flight, and there should be no question what everyone's role in the cockpit is. When abnormal or emergency situations occur, roles should be clear. Both crewmembers should be proficient in the aircraft type and able to properly execute memory items for their crew position, and prioritize handling, navigation, and radio use. When all parties have a clear understanding of their role and have covered the flight in detail in briefing, most problems have been handled before they ever arise. The single most important part of the briefing is the point at the end, where the pilot flying asks "any questions?" and then listens for the response. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I do enjoy how avbug can shoehorn a "there I was and saved the day..." story into any post or topic. I think has saved everybody's lives more times than he has had engine failures (where he saved everybody's lives, too). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Consistently, helonorth shows up to contribute nothing. Again. Please, input your crew experience. Are you able to do that? No day saving in the above post, but certainly personal examples of potential difficulty in a crew environment. Feel free to share your own experiences. Edited November 2, 2014 by avbug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I do enjoy how avbug can shoehorn a "there I was and saved the day..." story into any post or topic. I think has saved everybody's lives more times than he has had engine failures (where he saved everybody's lives, too). Typed in a B-747, a Lear (possibly an SIC type), and PIC on a Piaggio (the equivalent of another type rating).His certificate must have so many type ratings on it that it's the size of a king sized bed sheet. It makes me wonder why one person can have so many conflicts in the cockpit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 I don't have any "SIC" type ratings. The 747 and Learjet are both full types, with experience as first officer and captain in both. I have flown both internationally. Which have you flown? The Piaggio doesn't require a type rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstallion6113 Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) I have a type rating to fly the Klingon Bird of Prey. Edited November 5, 2014 by superstallion6113 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 How does it handle in ice? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted November 5, 2014 Report Share Posted November 5, 2014 It doesn't cloak as well and the phasers lose some effectiveness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 I've heard that can be fixed with seran wrap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 Saran also works with difficult crew members, more to the point of this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted November 6, 2014 Report Share Posted November 6, 2014 So does ether on a rag, but the plastic wrap lasts longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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