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Cyclic back - I actually found it...kind of?


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#1 eagle5

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 22:07

In the 22 poh, first page of EPs under Power Failure - General, it says;

Caution
"Aft cyclic is required when collective is lowered at high speed and forward CG."

No one ever stressed this during my training but...

#2 Flying Pig

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 22:19

Probably because the 400hrs CFI who taught your 300hrs CFI was never taught either



#3 apacheguy

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 00:30

No one ever stressed that you needed to be within the airspeed limits during the autorotation?  So if you enter "at high speed" (ie above the published limit) you'd have to move the cyclic aft to reduce airspeed....either you misunderstood them or you need to get your money back from the school. 



#4 eagle5

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 00:35

That's not what I said at all.

#5 RagMan

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 17:25

So what was the verbiage the instructor would demonstrate upon initiating an auto when talking about the control inputs that would need to be made?

 


#6 Eric Hunt

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 17:46

It's largely due to flapback effects.

 

You know that when moving forward, you need more forward cyclic to stop the blade flapping back and the nose rising, so you can maintain your speed. The effect is bigger with more collective - the higher the lever, the more forward cyclic you need to counter flapback.

 

So, if you lower collective (either with or without power) you must put in aft cyclic (or really just take out the forward cyclic) to prevent the nose from dropping and RRPM decreasing.

 

Effects of Controls, the first lesson you would ever have had.



#7 eagle5

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 18:47

So what was the verbiage the instructor would demonstrate upon initiating an auto when talking about the control inputs that would need to be made?


Just the usual. Collective down, rt pedal, pitch for 65. We never did high speed autos, and he never mentioned the need for aft cyclic during high speed entries to help keep the rpm up, which is what i believe that caution note is referring to.

I only mention it because of the semi-recent posts regarding the "cyclic back" thing.

#8 Mikemv

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 20:17

The USHST was discussing handbook errata sheets with the FAA. We were told that handbook revisions/upgrades were not a priority but we pointed out the FAA/industry efforts towards the IACS for alignment of handbooks, knowledge test and the new/coming ACS. ( helos around 2016/17)

 

There are 62 errors to the PHAK listed in errata sheets and many in the HFH. Tim Tucker pointed out many errors in Chap.11 and I went thru some other Chapters.

 

The FAA moved the HFH to the top of the list to address errors and errata sheets as we move towards the Integrated Airman Certification Standards (IACS) and replacement of the PTSs with ACSs.

 

The FAA (AFS-630) told members of the USHST JHSIT twg. to submit input for a reprint of the HFH.

 

Pete Gillies, 3 DPEs -(Karl Cotton, Randy Rowles,Tim Tucker) and myself will be having input to wording, corrections plus the inclusion of the errata sheets listed on faa.gov.

 

Submissions are due to the FAA by the end of January for February review and then a reprint. 

 

I know that the autorotation entry wording will be changed to read simultaneous application of full down collective and aft cyclic, pedal for trim, etc. etc.

 

We are having to note errors by Chapter, page, topic, paragraph, sentence, or figure and then supply the proper wording. Also, we are addressing deletions from required/desired text.

 

Again, this is not a total revision of the HFH but what the FAA calls a reprint. It will be a better handbook for us all.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike


Edited by Mikemv, 07 January 2015 - 23:12.

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#9 eagle5

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 21:51

How can there be "many" errors in the HFH, isn't it supposed to be an improvement on the RFH...and doesn't anyone proof read these things?

Plus, if Tim Tucker is involved why don't they update the Robbie POH to include this cyclic back?

Edited by eagle5, 05 January 2015 - 21:53.


#10 WolftalonID

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 01:04

I was always taught from day one, auto entry is down, right aft. Meaning down collective, right pedal, aft cyclic. Simple yet effective verbage in the cockpit to teach or introduce the manuever to any student. Eagle5, are you saying this was NOT the case in your training?
Sometimes we think we know it all....only later to discover we only knew all we had learned. Never stop learning.

#11 Mikemv

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 06:50

How can there be "many" errors in the HFH, isn't it supposed to be an improvement on the RFH...and doesn't anyone proof read these things?

Plus, if Tim Tucker is involved why don't they update the Robbie POH to include this cyclic back?

So, Eagle5, are you saying that you do not believe me when I say that there are "many" errors in the HFH or that I am incorrect?

 

Have you updated your HFH to include the errata sheet notations as a minimum update? 

 

Your issues with "cyclic back/aft cyclic" show you still do not understand the aerodynamics of driving a rotor in autorotation. You are not alone in this.

 

POHs are not training manuals for basic knowledge & flying skills. 

 

I hope you will open your mind to learning about helicopter flying.

 

The USHST & FAA are trying to improve flight training and address accident reduction in helicopter aviation. 

 

I did hesitate posting about the HFH reprint efforts expecting posts like yours. Accept it or not, it is happening.

 

Do not take this personal as others are with you in having received incomplete training in basic areas.

 

Eagle5 check your PMs.

 

Mike


Edited by Mikemv, 06 January 2015 - 07:03.


#12 eagle5

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:20

No I believe you. I just don't see how there can be many errors in something that is so important and not exactly a first draft!

It makes me wonder what I think is correct that is actually wrong?

The poh may not be a training manual, but many a CFI use it as such.

#13 RagMan

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 14:21

The Robinson R22/R44 flight training guide  :D Robinson hands these out when you attend the Pilots' Safety Course. 

 

The guide which every Robinson helicopter flight school should be utilizing as their maneuver syllabus. Sadly, I'd take a guess to say probably very very few schools use it (but I could be wrong.)

 

Personally, the school I attended used the term, "aft cyclic" during practice auto rotation maneuvers and that was taught from day one.


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#14 Spike

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 15:58

It would be a critical mistake (and possibly fatal) to believe one can predict the circumstance which a movement of a flight control should be made at a particular moment…. Simply put, the variables are endless and the environment is extremely dynamic. Specifically, Robinson wants its pilots to fly their machine in the most conservative manner to avoid crashes and subsequent litigation. Pile on flight school accident paranoia and FAA risk aversion and you have built a culture of benign leaning which tends to be based heavily on theory…..

 

Additionally, the HFH thousands of pilots used in the past had much less information than the one published today. Therefore, why change it? One could speculate; it’s not the quantity of information being provided, but the quality of which that information is being taught and/or, not understood by the student…..


Edited by Spike, 06 January 2015 - 15:58.

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#15 Goldy

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 01:10

Eagle 5, this is the exact reason I made the cyclic back post to begin with. Not enough emphasis on what happens when you lower collective (the nose drops) and the speeds at which effective autorotations can be made....considering the real loss of rotor rpm that occurs in real auto's. I was fortunate enough to learn when CFI's would do unannounced throttle chops...about as close to the real thing as you can get...compared to today's "every auto starts at 65 knots, level and announced". Don't get me wrong, I understand the dangers of throttle chops, I also understand the dangers of what has become a norm in teaching auto's today by many schools.

 

Glad you learned some things from the post.

 

Fly safe,

 

Goldy


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#16 superstallion6113

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 06:53

I'm surprised that there are schools/instructors out there that do not emphasis the importance of applying aft cyclic when entering an auto. The school I went to taught us that from the beginning of autorotation training, and my CFI daily asked me multiple questions during preflight, and what do you do when entering an auto and why was almost always one of those questions. Apply aft cyclic to use the forward airspeed to keep main rotor speed up.



#17 Mikemv

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 07:41

The USHST was discussing handbook errata sheets with the FAA. We were told that handbook revisions/upgrades were not a priority but we pointed out the FAA/industry efforts towards the IACS for alignment of handbooks, knowledge test and the new/coming ACS. ( helos around 2016/17)

 

There are 62 errors to the PHAK listed in errata sheets and many in the HFH. Tim Tucker pointed out many errors in Chap.11 and I went thru some other Chapters.

 

The FAA moved the HFH to the top of the list to address errors and errata sheets as we move towards the Integrated Airman Certification Standards (IACS) and replacement of the PTSs with ACSs.

 

The FAA (AFS-630) told members of the USHST JHSIT twg. to submit input for a reprint of the HFH.

 

Pete Gillies, 3 DPEs -(Karl Cotton, Randy Rowles,Tim Tucker) and myself will be having input to wording, corrections plus the inclusion of the errata sheets listed on faa.gov.

 

Submissions are due to the FAA by the end of January for February review and then a reprint. 

 

I know that the autorotation entry wording will be changed to read simultaneous application of full down collective and aft cyclic, pedal for trim, etc. etc.

 

We are having to note errors by Chapter, page, topic, paragraph, sentence, or figure and then supply the proper wording. Also, we are addressing deletions from required/desired text.

 

Again, this is not a total revision of the HFH but what the FAA calls a reprint. It will be a better handbook for us all.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike

As an update,

 

Submissions of corrections and suggestions of added input to the HFH from Pete, Tim, Randy & myself have been received by the proper FAA personnel. Through the USHST JHSIT TWG. we are fortunate to have a direct voice and path to making things better for you/us all. 

 

A little of Randy's input about Aft Cyclic/Cyclic Back:

 

 

 

My (Randy's) Recommendations:

 

Added Comment to Pete Gillie’s Recommendation –

 

First, I would like to add to Mr. Pete Gillie’s (Chief Pilot, Western Helicopters) comments regarding the importance of applying aft cyclic when entering an autorotation. As a longtime flight instructor, I couldn’t agree more with Pete as I’m sure most experienced instructors within the helicopter industry would as well. The key to getting the point across on such subjects is providing an example that is relevant to the topic.

 

I would suggest we provide an example taken from a baseball analogy. Applying aft cyclic when entering an autorotation is a key consideration because you want to present the rotor system to the changing relative wind. This is very similar to explaining HOW to catch a ball in a glove. In simple terms, you MUST present the open glove to the ball for the glove to function.

 

To properly catch a ball, the glove must be open and presented so that the ball will hit the glove in the pocket. If the glove is face down, the ball will hit the glove and be driven to the ground. If the glove is held upside down, the ball may roll up the glove and hit the person in the mouth, both non-desirable outcomes.

 

So you see…an analogy of catching a ball in a glove presents the reader with a basic fundamental principle of the interaction of the ball in flight, and how to properly engage the design of a glove to catch the ball. The rotor system works exactly the same way. No matter what the speed of the aircraft, the rotor system MUST immediately be presented to the airflow through the use of aft cyclic during all autorotative entries.     

 

__________________________

 

CFIs please learn from this analogy and teach it to clearly make the point? All of us can learn from this. 

 

For those of you that do not know who Randy is:

 

 

A bit of his background…(Randy Rowles)

  • 20-year DPE
  • Master CFI Helicopter/NVG IP/Examiner
  • Asst. Chief Instructor HAI FIRC
  • 2013 HAI Flight Instructor of the Year
  • Monthly Columnist Rotorcraft Pro Magazine
  • Current 141 Chief Instructor/135 Chief Pilot
  • Chair – Night Vision Advisory Council 

Sincerely,

 

Mike


Edited by Mikemv, 06 February 2015 - 07:43.

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#18 WolftalonID

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 11:03

Thanks Mike! I am actually right in the middle of teaching a few students their initial auto training. This analagy will wotk very well.
Sometimes we think we know it all....only later to discover we only knew all we had learned. Never stop learning.




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