Managing TO weight for Confined areas

[helipilotm]

I believe consistently operating at MGW produces some additional wear-and-tear but its mostly due to how the machine is operated by the pilot(s) and how its maintained by the mechanics that makes the difference. What really causes problems is; when a helicopter initial designed is modified over time with an increase in MGW and engine power. The Astar products come to mind. That is, some of the past-and-present Astar issues can be directly attributed to the constant increase in engine power with additional variations to allow for higher MGWs (to meet customer demands and/or to compete with other models). Basically, making engines more powerful will produce additional wear-and-tear on non-modified existing components

That's spot on Spike. I should have added more to my post. 90% + of the time I'm at MGW or close too it. Our mechanics keep up on the little stuff that gets worn "faster". If your not at MGW your not making money is my bosses motto.

 

Landing with 1.5 hours of fuel?? I wish.... If it was up to me I'd keep it on the light side but it's not. Thats the difference in the different jobs. And I will add depending on where and what I'm doing I like more fuel than cargo/passengers. Great post and discussion!

Edited January 31, 2015 by helipilotm

[Joe_P148]

I fly with some pilots who seem to have no regard for managing the weight of the helo other than staying under max gross weight. Seemed odd to me so I went online to look for info on T/O and landings in confined areas. Our helo pad is pretty confined. I didn't see much about managing weight anywhere. What is my malfunction here? lol I flew in the Navy where we were always balancing the idea of extra fuel vs performance issues. I feel it is good to be lighter any time you can for the equipment and performance, as long as you have plenty for the mission. They just want to keep the tank full all the time. Thanks for any comments.

I'll awnser from a military pilots perspective. The One number I'm concernd about is my MAX GW OGE. What is the heaviest I can be and maintain an OGE hover for the forecasted weather conditions? Even if I'm landing into a open field I still want to have the ability to maintain an OGE hover in the event there are unforeseen obstacles or obscurations. Most units will require 60s to be at a minimum of MAX GWT OGE - 500 lbs which equates to about 2-3% below max TQ.

 

In Afghanistan there were times where we would take off MAX GWT IGE and do running T/O to get out of the airfield, I didn't like those days, too much margin for error, but we had to get the mission done.

 

I'm not familiar with civilian performance charts so I'm not sure if you even have a max GWT OGE?

[Joe_P148]

I'll awnser from a military pilots perspective. The One number I'm concernd about is my MAX GW OGE. What is the heaviest I can be and maintain an OGE hover for the forecasted weather conditions? Even if I'm landing into a open field I still want to have the ability to maintain an OGE hover in the event there are unforeseen obstacles or obscurations. Most units will require 60s to be at a minimum of MAX GWT OGE - 500 lbs which equates to about 2-3% below max TQ.

 

In Afghanistan there were times where we would take off MAX GWT IGE and do running T/O to get out of the airfield, I didn't like those days, too much margin for error, but we had to get the mission done. I'm almost positive the gun and scout guys did this everyday.

 

I'm not familiar with civilian performance charts so I'm not sure if you even have a max GWT OGE?

[eagle5]

From the stories I've heard from the guys who train in the mountains Robbie's will often do a running takeoff to get airborne, so I'm guessing they often can't HOGE at takeoff weight, and seemingly barely HIGE.

 

I'm not a fan of the running takeoff, but I don't (or have any desire to) fly in the mountains.

[Eric Hunt]

All your performance charts in the flight manual, and limitations for that matter, are on the understanding that you have IGE hover power as a minimum.

 

if you have to do a running takeoff, in peacetime, you are probably outside FM limits, and therefore uninsured. Just don't bend it, you might find it expensive when the court case comes up.

[Joe_P148]

All your performance charts in the flight manual, and limitations for that matter, are on the understanding that you have IGE hover power as a minimum.

 

if you have to do a running takeoff, in peacetime, you are probably outside FM limits, and therefore uninsured. Just don't bend it, you might find it expensive when the court case comes up.

Is everything by paper or do you have digital programs too?

[apacheguy]

From the stories I've heard from the guys who train in the mountains Robbie's will often do a running takeoff to get airborne, so I'm guessing they often can't HOGE at takeoff weight, and seemingly barely HIGE.

 

I'm not a fan of the running takeoff, but I don't (or have any desire to) fly in the mountains.

 

Dumb question from a non-Robbie pilot: how exactly does a skid equipped Robbie do a running takeoff?

 

In Hawks, Apaches, and Hooks the rolling takeoff is pretty normal due to the presence of wheels. Robbies have skids though.

[Eric Hunt]

All skidded aircraft can do it, on a flat hard surface. Surprised you weren't taught it when you passed through the Kiowa training phase?

 

(pointing into wind) Get as light on the skids as possible with the power available

Gently feed in forward cyclic, feel it wanting to move

Maybe give the pedals a wiggle to break the "stiction" of the skids

Stay straight as it starts to move, adjust the cyclic to get the best trade-off between moving forward and tipping onto the nose

As it reaches translational, adjust attitude to stay low to the ground (in ground effect) to build up speed, and important to keep skids almost flat now, rather than toes-down, in case you dig it in

Fly away, but remember that you will need a running landing at the other end.

[Pohi]

Do a search in these forums, you will find that particular topic beat to death, resurrected, and beaten to death a few times.

[Wally]

Is everything by paper or do you have digital programs too?

 

At my job, everything is paper. We only use computer/digital to generate paper to sign and file.

 

Preflight planning using RFM HOGE, then a power check at a hover and a safe altitude before entering the confined area.

[eagle5]

Dumb question from a non-Robbie pilot: how exactly does a skid equipped Robbie do a running takeoff?

 

In Hawks, Apaches, and Hooks the rolling takeoff is pretty normal due to the presence of wheels. Robbies have skids though.

 

Its easy, just leave the ground handling wheels on,...oh' wait that's a different thread!

[apacheguy]

All skidded aircraft can do it, on a flat hard surface. Surprised you weren't taught it when you passed through the Kiowa training phase?

 

(pointing into wind) Get as light on the skids as possible with the power available

Gently feed in forward cyclic, feel it wanting to move

Maybe give the pedals a wiggle to break the "stiction" of the skids

Stay straight as it starts to move, adjust the cyclic to get the best trade-off between moving forward and tipping onto the nose

As it reaches translational, adjust attitude to stay low to the ground (in ground effect) to build up speed, and important to keep skids almost flat now, rather than toes-down, in case you dig it in

Fly away, but remember that you will need a running landing at the other end.

 

Thanks for enlightening me (pun intended). I have flown enough skids to know that it's possible, but I'd put skid running starts in the same category as taking off backwards. Physically possible but always unsafe. The idea of doing one in a Robbie just makes no sense to me, but to each his own I suppose.

[SBuzzkill]

On a similar note, we ground taxi on our skids when the ramp is snowy. It feels like driving a tank. And it looks hilarious.

[eagle5]

Aren't you worried about hitting a patch of ice?

[apacheguy]

On a similar note, we ground taxi on our skids when the ramp is snowy. It feels like driving a tank. And it looks hilarious.

I'm wondering what ATM task that is...

[SBuzzkill]

It's a 3000-series task.

 

To eagle5: Patches of ice make it easier Less friction on your skid shoes.

Edited February 4, 2015 by SBuzzkill

[FlyingBuma]

 

Dumb question from a non-Robbie pilot: how exactly does a skid equipped Robbie do a running takeoff?

 

In Hawks, Apaches, and Hooks the rolling takeoff is pretty normal due to the presence of wheels. Robbies have skids though.

The technique was already explained, but I'll add this. During my training, flying Schweizer 300Cs, my instructor asked me to do a running take off after landing in the middle of a helipad. I looked at him like he was crazy, thinking there wasn't enougth room. He took controls and then demoed it, sliding about 10ft before popping off the pad.

 

My error? I neglected to figure in the 20knot wind. =)

 

[Jaybee]

I've done running take-offs from grass. All of my primary and commercial helicopter and private fixed wing were done on grass.