Joe_P148 Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 No matter how many hours you have, mistakes still happen. RIP. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/guard-reserve/2015/02/08/investigators-human-error-caused-idaho-guard-helo-crash/23083221/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagMan Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) For any of you -64 guys with Longbow experience, is that correct about the "lockout" option for the engine (or power) control levers? It sounds like the reporters got it all wrong in regards to the concept of the "lockout" system. It may or may not be the same principle, but in the -60L/Ms, the lockout option would overspeed the engine by a certain % in case of a dire need of more power and only in an emergency situation of more power (if my memory serves me right.) Also if memory serves me right, the -60s and -64s use the same power plant (T-701C/D.) Can any of our gun buddies shed some light on this? Edited February 10, 2015 by RagMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterRooster Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 d-d-d-ouble post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterRooster Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 NP will follow the rotor speed when they are both in lockout. The rotor shot up, so did the NP, up to the limit and the DEC killed the engines 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahelopilot Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 If an engine power lever is moved to the lockout position automatic control of the engine through the Digital Electronic Control Unit (DECU) is no longer in effect. The engine must be controlled manually by manipulating the power lever to keep the engine within its normal operating range. When the power lever is moved to lockout the engine will overspeed and shutdown at 119.6% Np if the power lever is inadvertently left in the lockout position. This is why it's critical that once moved to lockout the power lever must immediately be brought back to an intermediate position before the Np over speed limit is reached. (To my fellow Apache pilots, please correct me if I got any of that wrong. I was trying to recall that from memory and haven't had to perform a lockout in years.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterRooster Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 That's exatly what happened. 1 was put into lockout and 2 was inadvertently bumped into lockout as well. The engine did what it should and shut off the engines via Overspeed protection at 120+/- 1%. Also Apaches have an auto relight that has a 5 second delay built in. If that wouldn't have been there he possibility of landing with some power might have been possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 The NP limiter is somewhere around 120% on the 701. I don't care about the + or - because I can't really gauge that in the cockpit. The limiter cuts off fuel flow to the engine so essentially if you leave the engines in lockout the engine could flame out if auto relight was inop. At 400 AGL that might not be enough time, especially if you have to reduce collective cause your engines just flamed out. From the article it says the pilots had about 3 seconds to react. The PCLs could have been moved to lockout with the IP unable to clearly identify that both PCLs were in lockout. Also, both PCLs would have had to be moved to idle before going out of lockout so maby that's shy they opted to leave the engines in lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apacheguy Posted February 10, 2015 Report Share Posted February 10, 2015 No matter how many hours you have, mistakes still happen. RIP. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/guard-reserve/2015/02/08/investigators-human-error-caused-idaho-guard-helo-crash/23083221/ Very unfortunate. I never did like the setup of the control levers; 70's technology that needs an improvement/update. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagMan Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure.Lockout isn't really for an engine failure more than an engine malfunction. Decreasing Rotor RPM as a result of DEC/ECU low side failure requires engine lockout to regain rotor RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apacheguy Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure. I would not trust the idle stop to catch the lever. I've pulled levers to idle for engine cooldowns on the ground and had the engine shutdown instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akscott60 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Oh wow, that sucks. I find the way the 64 and 60s control engines to be interesting. The chinook is dirt simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 How does it work in the Chinook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akscott60 Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 The 47 has FADEC controlling the engines. We have two channels, primary and reversionary. We can adjust individual engines in REV with the beep switch if various modes of power matching fail. The Engine Condition Levers only have a simple gate for Stop, Ground, and Flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synixman Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Tragic stuff. Navy wise, we only touch one PCL at a time, and only at a safe single engine speed or on the deck. We also do DECU Lockout training as an EP Training regularly in the aircraft. Technique is to pull the PCL out of FLY, forward quickly to engage lockout, then to the 6 o'clock position. Leaving it up in fly range is a surefire way to hit an engine limit. If I put one PCL into lockout and the second one did it too, I think I'd be in for a helluva ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted March 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 Tragic stuff. Navy wise, we only touch one PCL at a time, and only at a safe single engine speed or on the deck. We also do DECU Lockout training as an EP Training regularly in the aircraft. Technique is to pull the PCL out of FLY, forward quickly to engage lockout, then to the 6 o'clock position. Leaving it up in fly range is a surefire way to hit an engine limit. If I put one PCL into lockout and the second one did it too, I think I'd be in for a helluva ride.It's the same way in the Army, they just made a mistake because the 64s PCLS are down low and closer together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karver Posted March 6, 2015 Report Share Posted March 6, 2015 That's too bad - you hear about this stuff way too often ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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