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Idaho Guard Crash Investigation


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For any of you -64 guys with Longbow experience, is that correct about the "lockout" option for the engine (or power) control levers? It sounds like the reporters got it all wrong in regards to the concept of the "lockout" system.

 

It may or may not be the same principle, but in the -60L/Ms, the lockout option would overspeed the engine by a certain % in case of a dire need of more power and only in an emergency situation of more power (if my memory serves me right.) Also if memory serves me right, the -60s and -64s use the same power plant (T-701C/D.)

 

Can any of our gun buddies shed some light on this?

Edited by RagMan
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If an engine power lever is moved to the lockout position automatic control of the engine through the Digital Electronic Control Unit (DECU) is no longer in effect. The engine must be controlled manually by manipulating the power lever to keep the engine within its normal operating range. When the power lever is moved to lockout the engine will overspeed and shutdown at 119.6% Np if the power lever is inadvertently left in the lockout position. This is why it's critical that once moved to lockout the power lever must immediately be brought back to an intermediate position before the Np over speed limit is reached. (To my fellow Apache pilots, please correct me if I got any of that wrong. I was trying to recall that from memory and haven't had to perform a lockout in years.)

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That's exatly what happened. 1 was put into lockout and 2 was inadvertently bumped into lockout as well. The engine did what it should and shut off the engines via Overspeed protection at 120+/- 1%. Also Apaches have an auto relight that has a 5 second delay built in. If that wouldn't have been there he possibility of landing with some power might have been possible

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The NP limiter is somewhere around 120% on the 701. I don't care about the + or - because I can't really gauge that in the cockpit.

 

The limiter cuts off fuel flow to the engine so essentially if you leave the engines in lockout the engine could flame out if auto relight was inop. At 400 AGL that might not be enough time, especially if you have to reduce collective cause your engines just flamed out.

 

From the article it says the pilots had about 3 seconds to react. The PCLs could have been moved to lockout with the IP unable to clearly identify that both PCLs were in lockout.

 

Also, both PCLs would have had to be moved to idle before going out of lockout so maby that's shy they opted to leave the engines in lockout.

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Very unfortunate. I never did like the setup of the control levers; 70's technology that needs an improvement/update.

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Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure.

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Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure.

Lockout isn't really for an engine failure more than an engine malfunction.

 

Decreasing Rotor RPM as a result of DEC/ECU low side failure requires engine lockout to regain rotor RPM.

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Ok so here's another question; Instead of utilizing the lockout feature, what advantages and/or disadvantages are there of just bringing back one engine to idle to simulate a single engine failing? It would seem to me that would be the more "smart" means to simulating a failure.

 

I would not trust the idle stop to catch the lever. I've pulled levers to idle for engine cooldowns on the ground and had the engine shutdown instead.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The 47 has FADEC controlling the engines. We have two channels, primary and reversionary. We can adjust individual engines in REV with the beep switch if various modes of power matching fail. The Engine Condition Levers only have a simple gate for Stop, Ground, and Flight.

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Tragic stuff.

 

Navy wise, we only touch one PCL at a time, and only at a safe single engine speed or on the deck.

 

We also do DECU Lockout training as an EP Training regularly in the aircraft. Technique is to pull the PCL out of FLY, forward quickly to engage lockout, then to the 6 o'clock position. Leaving it up in fly range is a surefire way to hit an engine limit.

 

If I put one PCL into lockout and the second one did it too, I think I'd be in for a helluva ride.

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Tragic stuff.

 

Navy wise, we only touch one PCL at a time, and only at a safe single engine speed or on the deck.

 

We also do DECU Lockout training as an EP Training regularly in the aircraft. Technique is to pull the PCL out of FLY, forward quickly to engage lockout, then to the 6 o'clock position. Leaving it up in fly range is a surefire way to hit an engine limit.

 

If I put one PCL into lockout and the second one did it too, I think I'd be in for a helluva ride.

It's the same way in the Army, they just made a mistake because the 64s PCLS are down low and closer together.

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