Neighbor joy riding over my property at low altitude

[Brett F]

Being a helicopter forum, I'm not sure I'll find a sympathetic audience, but here goes:

 

My family owns land in a rural area. We enjoy getting out of the big city and enjoying nature and deer hunting.

 

A wealthy neighbor of ours, also from the big city, apparently bought himself a helicopter and has started taking joy rides over the countryside, including over our property. It's difficult to judge altitude, but he is maybe 300' up. He has the side window down and you can clearly make him out (his arm was rested on the window like he was cruising down the interstate in his car).

 

If this were a one time deal, I wouldn't sweat it. However, I'm afraid it's becoming much more than that.

 

I hate to be a NIMBY, but is he fully within his rights?

 

Even if he is within his rights, do you consider what he's doing disrespectful to his neighbors?

 

I plan on talking to him this weekend.

[wickedsprint]

As long as he's flying in a safe manner there is little recourse for you unless you can show damages that a civil court will hear.

 

On the flip side, maybe ask for a ride and get some good pictures and a new perspective of your property

 

Additionally, since you mentioned hunting, he may be willing to advise you of poachers / trespassers he sees on your property.

Edited April 29, 2015 by wickedsprint

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

300 feet up sounds fully legal to me, helicopters are not restricted to altitude like fixed wings. now if he was buzzing you,like say 50 feet up, then you might have a case.

 

he would be disrespectful only if he was like directly hovering over your house and causing damage from the Rotor wash. sorry, but you don't own the airspace above your property.

 

from your comment about how he is flying over with his arm out the window, I don't buy that. unless he has someone else flying him around. kind of hard to hold the collective pitch with your arm out the window. that also makes you sound jealous that he is enjoying what he worked hard for.

 

you can talk to him all you want, but from what I read he is very well legal and would not even be considered disrespectful in a court of law.

 

I am sure someone else here can quote the FAA regs on that.

 

even a fixed wing is legal down to 500 feet over the country side.

 

honestly, unless you have live stock like cattle or horses that you could prove he was endangering, he could legally hover just a few feet over your land and all you could do is complain. unless he is flying recklessly and endangering people or property on the ground. and he would need to be less then 100 feet for the FAA to even conceder that probably. you are just wasting your time.

 

you can talk to him nicely about it. but he sounds legal to me.

[wickedsprint]

Fixed wing has no numerical lower altitude limit over sparsely populated areas.

 

You just have to keep a 500' bubble from people and structures.

Edited April 29, 2015 by wickedsprint

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

Fixed wing has no numerical lower altitude limit over sparsely populated areas.

 

You just have to keep a 500' bubble from people and structures.

yeah I have not read the regs in awhile, since I don't have anything to fly, but I remembered something about 500 feet over the country side and I think 1000 feet over the highest obstacle in the city for fixed wings.

[apiaguy]

You ARE a NIMBY!! And from the sounds of it the worst kind.... JEALOUS!

Do you feel you are being disrespectful when you drive down the road? What exactly are you complaining about here? That your rich neighbor gets to fly around in his helicopter.... oh that's rich... You seem to be looking for a reason to complain to him because you don't like what he gets to do or how he does it. Why don't you just tell us your address?

[Spike]

Talking to him and explaining your concerns is the best place to start. When you do, use the term “fly neighborly” as this is an industry wide effort to reduce noise on our surrounding communities. Additionally, if your talk doesn’t go so well, check your city/county ordinances for altitude restrictions which would give you some legal standing….

[Wally]

Being a helicopter forum, I'm not sure I'll find a sympathetic audience, but here goes:

 

My family owns land in a rural area. We enjoy getting out of the big city and enjoying nature and deer hunting.

 

A wealthy neighbor of ours, also from the big city, apparently bought himself a helicopter and has started taking joy rides over the countryside, including over our property. It's difficult to judge altitude, but he is maybe 300' up. He has the side window down and you can clearly make him out (his arm was rested on the window like he was cruising down the interstate in his car).

 

If this were a one time deal, I wouldn't sweat it. However, I'm afraid it's becoming much more than that.

 

I hate to be a NIMBY, but is he fully within his rights?

 

Even if he is within his rights, do you consider what he's doing disrespectful to his neighbors?

 

I plan on talking to him this weekend.

 

I have a problem with unwanted celestial illumination. My house, particularly my bedroom, faces South East (over my backyard!) and when the Sun or Moon rises, they disturb my sleep. I think the more obtrusive of the two, the sun, is only 92,955,807 miles from my window. Further, it occasionally causes my horseless carriage to become uncomfortably warm. (There are also, smaller, dimmer points in the night sky that make me feel insignificant.)

 

I don't own the sky above but I imagine that have some inherent right to control anybody or anything that I become aware of through direct sensory experience. Consequently I am very unhappy. Please help.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Wally

[avbug]

Begin by contacting the neighbor; ask him not to overfly your property. If this is unsuccessful, you may contact the FAA. His operation of the aircraft at a low altitude over your property may not be a violation of 14 CFR 91.119, because he is in a helicopter, but it does not mean that he cant' be violated. The FAA takes a dim view of careless or reckless operation, which is addressed (and prohibited by 91.13.

 

91.119(a) opens with the basic minimum altitude rule, which applies to fixed wing and helicopters: one can't operate at an altitude that prevents making an emergency landing with "undue hazard" to persons or property on the surface.

 

Wickedsprint mentioned minimum distances, but may not know that the FAA has affirmed on various occasions that a few people gathered, or a couple of structures qualifies as a congested area, and bumps up the minimum altitude. Pilots have ended up the subject of enforcement action in the past because they were unaware of this.

 

Because the neighbor is operating a helicopter, he is allowed to operate at altitudes lower than the basic minimums, as allowed by 91.119(d)(1). This does not allow the helicopter to operate anywhere, any time, however, and shouldn't be construed as such.

 

You indicated that your neighbor is "joyriding," but haven't indicated how you know this to be the case. You also indicated that his arm is hanging out the window. Which seat is he in? Generally one doesn't operate a helicopter with one's arm hanging out the window; helicopter operations use both hands on the controls and both feet actively engaged on the pedals. If he's flying at 300' over his property with his hands off the controls and out the window, depending on what he's doing, that might represent careless or reckless operation of the aircraft (remember that he's still responsible for the ability to make a safe emergency landing without hazard to persons or property on the surface, if his engine fails, and that takes both hands).

 

How do you know the altitude over your property?

 

If the neighbor's property is adjacent to yours, is it possible that his flight path is the result of taking off or landing, and influenced by obstacles or wind? Taking off and landing, approaching and departing the landing site, are acts dictated by the requirements of the helicopter, as well as surrounding obstacles, and wind.

 

Talk with your neighbor, then check back with the results. If the talk is reasonable, chances are that the results will be, too.

 

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=064ed914ed58695ffff7ab246d01e721&mc=true&node=se14.2.91_1119&rgn=div8

 

 

§91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

( b ) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

© Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph ( b ) or © of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph © of this section.

 

Edited April 29, 2015 by avbug

[Brett F]

Some really great responses, thanks guys!

 

I will have an honest and respectful conversation with him this weekend.

 

Hopefully he respects my position and will fly in a different direction and not over my property.

 

Frankly, I was surprised by some of the responses criticizing me. But this is the Internet so I shouldn't be. I know who I am and I am not those negative things.

 

P.S. The guy with the arm out the window was on the left side of the helicopter.

 

Thanks again I really appreciate your input!

[eagle5]

I'll take your helicopter noise over my a**hole neighbor's music any day of the week!

 

I thought country folk owned shotguns for crap like this?

Edited April 29, 2015 by eagle5

[Nearly Retired]

OP says he enjoys "getting out of the big city" so we can assume that he lives in a big city and visits his family's rural property sporadically. Hey, people do enjoy getting out in the country to get away from the hustle and bustle of Bigtown. And then some nitwit comes along, joyriding in his noisy helicopter, spoiling the whole effect. "Here he comes again, Martha, just like clockwork! Dammitall!"

 

Can't we helicopter guys sympathize just a little?

 

The trouble is, this particular helicopter guy may not be doing anything that's against the law. Notice I did not say "anything illegal" which would imply that there are existing regulations that he's willfully breaking. In fact, there are very few laws/regulations governing the way helicopters fly in "rural" areas.

 

The fact that he's doing something "disrespectful" is another matter. Yes, he certainly may be doing that. But there is no law against being disrespectful to your fellow citizens. At least not at the present time. Sometimes people are just a-holes and they have a perfect right to be and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

Yeah, go talk to him for all the good it will do. You will just come off as some bitchy, jealous neighbor. Because the pilot/owner in question undoubtedly knows he's not doing anything "wrong." In other words, don't expect much sympathy.

 

Me? Here's how I'd approach it. I'd meander over to his property some evening with a case of cold beer. EVERYBODY loves cold beer and it's a great way to break the ice. And not that Natty Ice or Keystone crap...pop for some Mich Ultra or whatever *good* beer you enjoy. Go on over and introduce yourself. Tell him you've seen him fly over - ask him what type of helicopter it is? DON'T BE A DICK! At least, not right off the bat. Gently ask him for a ride. Say, "Hey...maybe you take me up in that thing some day?" The pilot will say, "Sure!" and he'll probably act like he means it. And maybe he will. He might even offer to take you up right then and there! Gently refuse. Tell him you're not feeling well and have been puking all day. He will ABSOLUTELY not want to take a potential puker up in his pride and joyriding helicopter.

 

After you and he have had a chance to bond a little (and maybe get all liquored up), then POLITELY ask if he could maybe refrain from flying directly over your property so much on weekends or when you're out hunting or whenever. Blame it on your wife. Say she's a real bitch and hates everything under the sun, including you of course, and also including helicopter noise and the only reason you married her was because you knocked her up in the back seat of your dad's Ford Pinto which was a feat in itself given how small the Pinto is/was, and now you can't wait to divorce her ass and buy a Harley but you're only staying together until the kids graduate college. The pilot/owner will ABSOLUTELY believe this bunch of b.s. He's probably done it himself.

 

Say, "Look, I love seeing you come over. But if *she* sees you...or hears you...one more time she's gonna call the cops and the FAA and our pastor and the television stations and probably Dear Abby for all I know."

 

Then leave. Leave behind any undrunk beer if you guys are that much of a wussy that you can't finish a case between the two of you in about an hour.

 

That's what I'd do. Seriously.

 

Let me know how it works out.

[rotormandan]

Mich ultra good? You did say bring beer right?

[Pohi]

This is a tricky situation, bringing beer is ok, bringing good beer is better, and bringing the kind of beer your neighbor drinks is best.

 

I suggest that you figure out what kind of beer they drink... it should be pretty simple.

 

Just go rent a helicopter (and pilot) and fly over your neighbors house so you can see what kind of empties that are in his trash can. You might have to go kinda low and do some circles, but just don't land on his property or damage anything and you will be totally ok (legally).

 

Then, once you have identified the kind of beer they drink, have the pilot rake you back, stop by the store, get the right beer, and the go to his house and politely ask him to stop flying over your property.

[apiaguy]

If you ask him to stop flying over "your" property you will sound like the biggest AHOLE ever and the guy will try to apologize but will keep flying over. You should have bought more land.

[Guest pokey]

i been flying for ages, 4 things i learned,, there are dickheads in the air, on the ground, in the tower, and i better not mention the last one

 

oh wait ! make it five, (i was flying since B4 the internet)

Edited April 30, 2015 by pokey

[helonorth]

If you ask him to stop flying over "your" property you will sound like the biggest AHOLE ever and the guy will try to apologize but will keep flying over. You should have bought more land.

Why should he have bought more land?

[Guest pokey]

Why should he have bought more land?

 

 

helicopter will "eat up" couple hundred acres, how much of nevada? or is it that ted turner owns? like 5 % ? i think that would be enuf

[helonorth]

Maybe if he had more land he could move his house to a place where his neighbor then wouldn't fly over it?

[adam32]

Put up a 310 foot flag pole.

[MLH]

I can't think of a model of helicopter that has a widow that opens like an automobile where an arm can be rested on the sill, help me out guys.

 

Mike.

[rotormandan]

You can stick your elbow out the sliding window on a 206

[Guest pokey]

i would venture to guess the guy mistook "elbow out window" for his arm on the collective?

 

 

There is nothing worse than showing up with a cold case of beer, and hearing your neighbor say "im an alcholic"---may want to think that one again.

[Pohi]

i would venture to guess the guy mistook "elbow out window" for his arm on the collective?

 

 

There is nothing worse than showing up with a cold case of beer, and hearing your neighbor say "im an alcholic"---may want to think that one again.

The guy owns a helicopter, of course he is an alcoholic. Or at the very minimum likes beer, otherwise the guy would be flying an airplane instead of a helicopter

[BH206L3]

Gee's maybe the fellow is just making an approach to his pad for landing! I put up with a lot of BS where I live with regard to some land I happen to own and among other things also hunt deer on! In my case its not so much the EMS helicopter that over flies my property on the way to Yale New Haven Hospital, its the lady that lives across the road and her 10 dogs! She figures she can walk her dogs on my property anytime she dam well feels like it, I even got her on Video! She dose not like hunting so that why she dose it, figures the dogs will keep the deer out and little old me will not get to shoot one or two or three! I been polite about it, since the State gone communist I have to be careful in what I say and how I say it, she could get an restraining order, and then the state can confiscate my guns and better yet my land, they want the property, they just don't want to have to buy it! Most people who don't fly sometimes thing they are seeing something that is either unsafe or reckless when its not! Go over introduce yourself and just ask what is the deal with your helicopter and when I am going to get a ride, oh and I got these Rib Eyes for the grill, I am guessing that you are someplace in the south or south west, Nearly Retired use to fly for a guy that had a hunting camp if I am not mistaken.