Felon Licensing

[rotorrrhead]

I messed up and have a felony on my record. Does anyone know if I can finish the rotary training I did in my 20s and get my license?

I love helicopters almost as much as my dog.

[Flying Pig]

Felons own flight schools. So who knows.

[WolftalonID]

Call your local FSDO office and ask.

[rotormandan]

Yes you can get you liscence. The felony might hold you back with some jobs though. Of course there's just as many where it doesn't matter. I don't know how a felony affects getting an atp though since "shows good moral character" or something like that is a requirement. It depends on how an examiner interprets that.

[adam32]

It depends on the felony. Drug or alcohol related, good luck! Fraud or co-mingling of funds, a better chance...

[rotorrrhead]

Thanks a lot guys. I appreciate your replies. No drugs or alcohol involved. Never done drugs even once actually. The best 'high' I have ever gotten is from flying a chopper.

[Carpenter]

Call your local FSDO office and ask.

Felons own the FSDO as well.

[Boatpix]

FELON PILOTS and my thoughts: I had once thought I saw a link between convicted felon instructors and wrecking MY helicopters. I started flying in R22's in 1986 and in 1990 we had an accident of a delivery of a new R22M from the factory in Torrance by a 3000 hour pilot that was clean. Then we had gone from 1990 to 2008 without an accident. In 2007 a fellow came to our school and we trained him from zero hours to cfi. We gave him a job as we do to all our cfi graduates. At some time in a conversation he indicated a felony and it was the sort of thing where he mentioned his family had to eat, etc., and he was stealing aviation radios and got caught. I don't know the real story. After a couple hundred hours with us he started to cross some lines, get cocky and know it all. There were some youtube videos showing that he was not following company or anyones normal procedures and the following weekend wrecked a helicopter. He sort of indicated that three maintenance problems cropped up at the same time and neither the FAA/NTSB nor I thought that was possible. So, up came the felony again in a quick conversation with the FAA/NTSB and it became self evident that maybe you can't trust a felon, its like law enforcement instinctively knows but can't say anything. FAA/NTSB has few tools with respect to this as I'll explain shortly.

 

Two years later in 2010 another helicopter gets wrecked with a cfi teaching himself and his student to do zero airspeed agricultural whens he's supposed to be doing training according to a syllabus. He should have started down wind and end the manuever into the wind and as we don't teach this and he never learned this from us, he ended up without airspeed, altitude or options. He told everyone the engine quit but the FAA/NTSB had an eyewitness who reported zero airspeed turns and being too low to recover. A few weeks later some parole paperwork arrives and it was Mr. Zero Airspeed. I started counting up that in twenty years we only had two accidents and both were felons. The parole officer would never talk to me (I wanted to tell him about the lie of the engine failing) but the secretary said that I couldn't have known about the felony as when the accident happened he hadn't been convicted yet. First guy was stealing and the second guy was drugs of some sort.

 

So, I went on a mission to try to educate others and I found a lot of resistance. I contacted my local FSDO and quickly got to the guy with the handcuffs that actually goes out and arrests people (or so he said). He told me there was no correlation between felons and accidents and in an hour long call dissuaded me from continuing my quest to tell others. Essentially, a large portion of our society is in a law enforcement type of computer and it would be difficult to determine the "good" guys and the "bad" guys and your past shouldn't haunt you (unless its with application for law enforcement). Having flown in r22's since 1986 I know a lot of very senior pilots, chief pilots, examiners, forum operators, etc. I sent out an email and made phone calls asking about a felon and accident correlation and got basically no response. No one was eager to talk or email on this. I had thought I had a breakthrough for accidents and safety and no one seemed to care.

 

The next week there was a tour helicopter accident in the East River of New York. A passenger couldn't get out of a JetRanger and drowned. The following day the New York Daily News determined the pilot was a convicted felon. HUGE HEADLINE. Then a number of chief pilots, examiners, etc. circled back with me that maybe my data of 20 years and only 2 accidents and both were felons was not coincidence. A cfi that was working for me at the time who was a former federal agent basically said that once someone moves over to the bad side and gets caught committing a felony that maybe they are too far gone to actually follow rules that you present them. Then net effect was these two felons pushed boundaries into helicopter horseplay and wrecked machines that others cfis had similar lines that they didn't cross.

 

Back to your question, though. When you get your medical before your first lesson you sign your name to a statement about your criminal background. Its seems vague at first unless you are a government lawyer and know what traps are being set about your background (think DUI). So you build 1200 hours and I don't think anyone checks anything up until you submit for ATP. At the ATP level they do a real serious background check. The FSDO guy with the handcuffs explained a story where I guy had a felony and was in denial only to get caught with a stack of paperwork the FAA had waiting for him with a background check and he didn't get ATP. So, he's probably still flying but doesn't have an ATP.

 

You don't think the fellow flying the Boeing 747 with 500 souls onboard didn't get a background check? Remember the guy that locked the captain in the lavitory and ran the airliner into the Alps? He didn't have an FAA ATP did he? So, the ATP is vetted with a background check and if you don't seek the ATP or a job that requires it and your a felon you'll probably be okay. But it does seem that if you don't require the ATP for pilots that work for you don't really know who your pilots really are and what their background really is. And if you are running a flight school and everyone has less than 1200 hours what do you really know about your instructors? Kind of a big gamble, right? It's like they don't really care about the low time pilots that the flight school is supposed to vet, check and employ.

 

After my encounter with the FSDO and a correlation of felons and accidents, I called my dad as i was perplexed the FAA didn't seem to care. I know the FAA both promotes aviation and regulates it. My dad passed away earlier this year but he was the #2 (Deputy Administrator) of a cabinet level member in the Nixon administration and when I told him that i didn't gain any traction with the FAA with respect to felons and accidents he gave me a hearty laugh. "Politics" he said. "Simply politics." You can't discriminate against someone because of race, creed, gender or being a felon but insurance can and does allows a form of discrimination known as modifiers. These modifiers contribute to higher rates which is discrimination in a different way (ATP might have lower rates to fly same aircraft as newbie commercial pilot as an example based upon perceived loss history). But you can't discriminate with felon pilots and they FAA apparently can't or doesn't have mechanism to tell you but could contribute to safety by culling out the folks that can't vote. I would rather have them vote than have flown and wrecked my helicopters. If you employ pilots you'll have to do a background check yourself but much of a person's background is only available for law enforcement.

[Flying Pig]

Nobody at the FSDO has any handcuffs or any arrest powers. If for someone reason an FAA matter turns into a criminal matter, you would be talking to the FBI. Quite honestly, people with documented track records of dishonesty combined with criminal records need to be outted. Especially when that documented past has to do with their claims related to aviation. Those people get other people killed. To much of this line of work is based on the honor system. Those who have taken advantage of that set up and who have used it to scam others have no place here.

 

Read it again cheesball, because I know "YOU" read this site. Dont worry, "He" knows who he is.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Flying Pig

[Boatpix]

Too much is based upon the honor system, absolutely. We have a very sophisticated program that allows me to quickly send a pdf of all hours flown in our aircraft including hobbs in, hobbs out, student, instructor, aircraft etc. You know, no one has actually ever asked me for this? I have had operators say they like a guy that came from my operation and I find that he lied about working with us as I never heard of the guy. Making up time would seem to be the type of thing a felon might do. But then deny it.

[rotorrrhead]

Well, Boatpix , it seems you have had some BAD run ins with some BAD people. My sympathies. All I can say is my felony had nothing to do with dishonesty or even trying to make easy money. I just want to get my private so I can get a Rotorway Exec and fly on the weekends. Starting a heli-career from scratch is a young man's game. Not a forty something ex-con's. Good vibrations to you and watch that RPM.

[Flying Pig]

Well not like any of us know you..... So give it up..... Whatchu get hooked for?

Edited July 18, 2015 by Flying Pig

[ridethisbike]

I doubt you'd have any problems getting a Class 3... but I'm not an AME, either, so what I think, or anyone else thinks , for that matter, means squat.

 

Call your local AME and ask him what he thinks. You can usually get free advice from these guys if you just ask for it.

[avbug]

I contacted my local FSDO and quickly got to the guy with the handcuffs that actually goes out and arrests people (or so he said). He told me there was no correlation between felons and accidents and in an hour long call dissuaded me from continuing my quest to tell others.

 

Your'e saying that an FAA employee has arrest powers and handcuffs, and that this was handled at the FSDO level? I find it difficult to believe that you're that naive and gullible, and a lot easier to believe that you're simply blowing hot air. You say this has been a topic of interest to you, yet you're that ignorant as to suggest or believe what your'e saying? I don't think so. Who from the FSDO "goes out and arrests people?"

 

Where do you come up with this tripe?

 

 

The next week there was a tour helicopter accident in the East River of New York. A passenger couldn't get out of a JetRanger and drowned. The following day the New York Daily News determined the pilot was a convicted felon. HUGE HEADLINE. Then a number of chief pilots, examiners, etc. circled back with me that maybe my data of 20 years and only 2 accidents and both were felons was not coincidence. A cfi that was working for me at the time who was a former federal agent basically said that once someone moves over to the bad side and gets caught committing a felony that maybe they are too far gone to actually follow rules that you present them.

 

 

It's said that there's no such thing as a dumb question, which isn't true, but it's axiomatic that there are plenty of dumb answers; the quote above is one such. You're attempting to suggest that conviction for a felony makes one a dangerous pilot? You're not a big fan of the scientific approach, are you? You're basing your guesswork on very loose correlations, asking a guy or two, and interviewing non-existent personnel at the FSDO level. In all of this, it appears that you'e never conducted any kind of background check on your own personnel. Have you ever actually asked for references from an employee, and contacted those references? Of course not...you don't hire people, you sell jobs and get people to pay you in order to "work" for you.

 

As an "employer," your lack of understanding on the most elementary details of checking the credentials of an "employee" is utterly appalling.

 

 

Back to your question, though. When you get your medical before your first lesson you sign your name to a statement about your criminal background. Its seems vague at first unless you are a government lawyer and know what traps are being set about your background (think DUI). So you build 1200 hours and I don't think anyone checks anything up until you submit for ATP. At the ATP level they do a real serious background check. The FSDO guy with the handcuffs explained a story where I guy had a felony and was in denial only to get caught with a stack of paperwork the FAA had waiting for him with a background check and he didn't get ATP. So, he's probably still flying but doesn't have an ATP.

 

 

Wow. You really are ignorant of this process, aren't you? No, the FAA medical application, now electronic, doesn't require the applicant to "sign your name to a statement about your criminal background." It does ask about driving history and convictions, and the applicant is subject to a check of the national driver registry.

 

"The guy at the FSDO with the handcuffs," again? Really?

 

You say that "at the ATP level they do "a real serious background check?" You don't have an ATP pilot certificate, do you? Of course not, otherwise you'd know that your assertion is false. No background check is done for the ATP. Formerly, one had to submit to a cursory exam of one's pilot records, which was a logbook review and in some cases calls to employers or spot checks on aircraft registry, etc, but that was done away with when the FAA ceased requiring a FSDO signoff to take the written test. A review of one's logbook isn't a background check, and at no point does the FAA perform a "real serious background check" for the ATP, or any other level of pilot certification.

 

Those who are hired under Part 135 or Part 121 are subject to the PIlot Records Improvement Act (PRIA), which involves various levels of review of pilot training and employment history, as well as driving history, and in many cases a credit check, but even that is cursory in nature and hardly a "real serious background check." Not even close.

 

You're apparently not aware that PRIA checks are done by the employer, at the expense of the employer, and that under 121 and 135, the employer is restricted from using a pilot until queries from all former flying employers have been settled. To be clear, if you want a background investigation on your "employees," it's up to YOU. Just what kind of due diligence have you done on those whom you've "hired?" You don't seem that discriminating, but then when you're "hiring" "employees" who pay you, instead of the other way around, you don't really need to be, do you?

 

 

You don't think the fellow flying the Boeing 747 with 500 souls onboard didn't get a background check? Remember the guy that locked the captain in the lavitory and ran the airliner into the Alps? He didn't have an FAA ATP did he? So, the ATP is vetted with a background check and if you don't seek the ATP or a job that requires it and your a felon you'll probably be okay. But it does seem that if you don't require the ATP for pilots that work for you don't really know who your pilots really are and what their background really is. And if you are running a flight school and everyone has less than 1200 hours what do you really know about your instructors? Kind of a big gamble, right? It's like they don't really care about the low time pilots that the flight school is supposed to vet, check and employ.

 

 

You continue to be 100% wrong. This is really ignorance on your part, or is it intentional?

 

The ATP doesn't require a background check. You're invoking the issue of a foreign airline, which is irrelevant to the question of obtaining a FAA ATP (an ICAO compliant and recognized pilot certificate, incidentally).

 

If you're running a flight school, or in the business of hiring pilots, and you don't know their background, that's YOUR fault. Stop whining about not knowing your pilot's background. It would seem that simply because the FAA has not compelled you to perform an investigation, you couldn't be bothered. You'd be required to complete the PRIA queries at a minimum, if you were the holder of a 121 or 135 operator certificate. It appears, then, that you've sought to do the bare minimum (or less than the bare minimum) as an "employer," and you're looking for someone to blame for your own inattentiveness. This isn't really surprising.

 

I happen to hold a security clearance, and have for a number of years. I also happen to be a qualified captain in the 747. A clearance was not required to fly the 747, even though it was flown on DoD flights, primarily in and out of Afghanistan. A clearance involves considerably more than a cursory background check, and is very expensive. I personally know several 747 crew members, currently operating, with felony backgrounds, one of whom shot a man. A "background check" is easy to obtain on any employee today, and requires none of the expense of a security clearance. It's easy, and fast, and takes little effort. You've not expended the slightest effort to learn anything about those whom you "hire."

 

You say that a flight school is supposed to "vet" and "check" employees. While there's no legal requirement to do so, any employer worth it's salt will do so. Why aren't you doing so?

 

Nearly every employer for whom I've worked has verified my credentials, my employment, my credit history, my driving record, and in many cases, my criminal history. Why don't you do this?

 

 

If you employ pilots you'll have to do a background check yourself but much of a person's background is only available for law enforcement.

 

 

Of course you're expected to determine the qualifications and status of those whom you hire. Obviously you don't.

 

Your assertion that a person's background is "only available for law enforcement" is untrue.

[Boatpix]

I run a flight school and don't background check those that are paying me for dual instruction. When I called my FSDO where I have a 141 Certificate I was transferred by the switchboard to the guy that claims to be the guy that goes out and arrests people, has handcuffs and has done this before. Miami FSDO might be different than other FSDO's as its not Mayberry. Or he might have been full of hot air as I seem to recall that there are like 27,000 airmen per FAA inspector? I also happen to know an FAA Prosecutor (the attorney that takes your license away in court) and carries that little Department of Justice Wyatt Earp type badge. I stand by my story, though. I have a 10+ year history on this forum of trying to educate people in a number of ways. Let me give you an example: Unless a flight school does something other than instruct they can't hire all the commercial pilots they train and they can't even hire all the Instructors they train as it is mathematically impossible unless they grow at a geometric rate. GI Bill can simulate a geometric rate but at some point the VA pulls the plug and there are not new students and no jobs (think 1980, and now for that matter). So, the guy that got his cfi and has no job looks at his options and we are one of those options. We require he fly 100 hours in our make and model (R22 Mariner on Floats, see photo) and on our contract and then we give him a job. He'll work for us a for a couple hundred hours and then we refer him to other operators that are anxious to employ them (after 30 years I know a lot of people that hire my cfis).

 

When a guy pays me $25,000 for this 100 hours of helicopter time of helicopter time I don't background check him. When he buys a 300 hour program including Private, Commercial and Instrument I don't background check him. Do understand that except for the solo hours the rest of the flying is all dual pilot and we can observe him a great deal in those 100 flying hours the transfer cfi will fly in one month or the 300 flying hours in 6 months the new student will do. The two that wrecked helicopters were felons and one we knew about the conviction and the other we didn't. This could be good information for others to know and that's why I presented it. The FSDO guy and criminologists have told me that there is no correlation between felons and accidents and I'm simply reporting what I've endured in a 20 year stretch was having only 2 accidents and both were felons.

 

Also notice that I am happy and friendly and have never logged on this forum to criticize anyone like you have criticized me. If you fly a Boeing 747 with another ATP that has shot another human and you fly in and out of Afghanistan maybe we have different perspectives? I'm in Mackinac Island, Michigan where there are no cars but only horses for transportation and you get here by boat or aircraft. I have two R22 Mariners here and 4 rated pilots where none of them have more than 500 hours. There are 300 sailboats sailing here from Detroit area (300 last year from Chicago) and it's a very happy life. I'm going to spend the next several days selling boat pictures where there will be a line of people looking to view what I have to sell and handing me credit cards and thanking me. My perspective comes from the happy side and I stand by everything I have said as factual.

[Flying Pig]

FAA Civil Aviation Security Special Agents are about the only thing they would have. However, I believe its an admin type position. They can be designated within an office and then sent to an investigators course (or) a records investigators course. I may be wrong, but I don't believe they are law enforcement officers. More of an internal affairs type security "expert". They do not attend FLETC which is the most basic, entry level Fed LE job academy.

 

A Federal Air Marshal is something completely different and they don't work out of FSDOs

 

Ive spent 10yrs as an LE pilot with an FSDO about 50yards from our hangar, talked and hung out with many FSDO employees and inspectors, and Ive never met, heard or, or had any dealings with anyone at a FSDO who had any LE authority. The only "cops" Ive met at a FSDO were FBI agents related to a laser strike investigation.

 

Im not trying to pick apart Boatpix's story.... just like researching. Dont want to piss off the wrong guy at the FSDO!

Edited July 19, 2015 by Flying Pig

[Goldy]

Boatpix makes a point about background checks. As an employer, nothing says you can't do a check on the people you employ and I would suggest it.

 

Disrespect for rules and laws is the common thread found in most people that find themselves in handcuffs, and that disrespect for rules does not play out well in our industry.

 

To the OP, I think most have said it, but you have to honestly answer the questions on your medical....if you meet the criteria you will get your med cert. It only costs $75 bucks to find out.

 

Goldy

[avbug]

Also notice that I am happy and friendly and have never logged on this forum to criticize anyone like you have criticized me. If you fly a Boeing 747 with another ATP that has shot another human and you fly in and out of Afghanistan maybe we have different perspectives? ... My perspective comes from the happy side and I stand by everything I have said as factual.

 

Definitely not factual, as itemized previously. You made false statements and were called out. If that makes you happy, so be it.

 

I don't log on to criticize you, but I will certainly respond to your false statements.

 

Your business practices are questionable at best and destructive to the industry as a whole. Your guerilla efforts to sell pictures to those who don't want them, Your harassment of boats with low passes and approaches, particularly when warned off, and your ongoing claims of "employment" when in fact your "employees" pay you are toxic to the industry.

 

Can you tell me about those indepth background checks accorded pilots of 747s? Of ATP applicants? Of the criminal history check one signs in order to get a medical certificate? I'd love to know more about all of that. Stand by those factual statements for me, will you?

 

 

When a guy pays me $25,000 for this 100 hours of helicopter time of helicopter time I don't background check him. When he buys a 300 hour program including Private, Commercial and Instrument I don't background check him. Do understand that except for the solo hours the rest of the flying is all dual pilot and we can observe him a great deal in those 100 flying hours the transfer cfi will fly in one month or the 300 flying hours in 6 months the new student will do. The two that wrecked helicopters were felons and one we knew about the conviction and the other we didn't. This could be good information for others to know and that's why I presented it. The FSDO guy and criminologists have told me that there is no correlation between felons and accidents and I'm simply reporting what I've endured in a 20 year stretch was having only 2 accidents and both were felons.

 

 

 

 

After all that whining about the lack of support by the FAA and the industry at large, about your woes in being stuck hiring a felon, that nobody ever checked for you and that you have no recourse, the truth is that you're not willing to check: you failed to do due diligence. Nobody failed you. You failed.

 

You don't want to upset the paying customers, so you don't check. You've just told me that someone buying a hundred hours of helicopter time, someone paying you twenty five grand, isn't going to get checked. You're not willing to upset the apple cart. You've indicated that two pilots who were felons damaged your aircraft; were these "employees," or simply people paying you twenty five grand to fly your aircraft? Either way, you've got nowhere to go with it; you were happy taking the money, but couldn't be bothered to spend a few dollars to learn who was flying your aircraft. Didn't even ask for a reference?

 

You've got two helicopters, and in twenty years, have had two mishaps on your company record. Both felons. From this, you've drawn a conclusion based on your own guesswork, despite professionals telling you the contrary. This is the source of your whining; you won't check, and you guess.

 

Convicted felon, you've said. Without the conviction, one isn't a felon. Conviction for what? Are all offenses equal, and do all make one unreliable? If one doesn't get caught, or gets acquitted, are they any different a person simply because they lack the conviction? You paint with a very broad, unscientific brush, and speak a lot of inaccuracies and lies. You talk about arrest powers at the FSDO, ATP background checks, and 747 pilots with vetted backgrounds, yet you seem to have no knowledge of any of these things.

 

 

So, the guy that got his cfi and has no job looks at his options and we are one of those options. We require he fly 100 hours in our make and model (R22 Mariner on Floats, see photo) and on our contract and then we give him a job.

 

 

Indeed. Twenty five thousand dollars is all it takes to buy a "job" with you. Of course you couldn't be bothered to vet your "employees." Who would take a chance offending them when they're paying two fifty an hour to "work" for you? Especially when you're making revenue off the time they're buying, in addition to what they're paying you? Quite a racket.

 

When you're so unwilling to do due diligence, why berate the system, or the FAA, for failure to do your job for you? It's your responsibility to determine the qualifications of your "employees." Not that of the FAA. It's inexpensive, easily done, and available to any employer that desires. The truth is that you're unwilling to do so. Why not stop projecting blame on the rest of the industry, and own up to the truth? You took money from two pilots who weren't up to snuff, failed to ensure their qualifications or background, and now blame them, felons in general, and the industry at large for your own failings. End of story.

[eagle5]

Boatpix vs. Avbug?

 

Hmm, who to root for?

[rotormandan]

Gotta go with avbug on this one.

 

Tom: Say someone bought a job from you for $25k, or more if they went from 0-cfii. Would you do the background check before or after they finish their training and were all paid up?

 

If you did it before, would you turn away a potential customer?

 

If you did it after and it was time to start paying the felon, would you still hire them? If you didn't, you couldn't claim you hire everyone anymore. If you do, then you can't really blame the fellon for crashing your helicopter.

[rotormandan]

Op: a felony will keep you from some jobs and won't matter for others. You can have a great career but it might be a slow start. Or maybe not. Basically you'll get what you put into it but with a history you might have to put a littke more into it.

 

The thing with laws is they are different in each state. A felony in one state might be a misdemeanor in others. Possession of pot is legal for recreational use in 2 states and a minor misdemeanor in others. While in Arizona and, probably a few others, it's a felony.

 

Some states call it drugs some call it tax revenue.

Edited July 20, 2015 by rotormandan

[whoknows idont]

He clearly stated that he is not planning to fly commercially.

 

I just want to get my private so I can get a Rotorway Exec and fly on the weekends. Starting a heli-career from scratch is a young man's game. Not a forty something ex-con's. Good vibrations to you and watch that RPM.

[rotormandan]

Good catch. Than no issues.

[r22butters]

An R44 tour operator did a background check on me once, "Is there anything you want to tell me before I run it?", he asked. Also had to take a personality test,...seemed like a lot just for a low-timer gig flying tourists around a parking lot every 5 min.?

 

With owning a chopper I wonder if your insurance will be more being a felon?,...that is if they even ask?

[Flying Pig]

Our insurance company asks us to list criminal convictions....which is funny since we are an LE agency.... but... Ive been surprised by less.