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What do you do when the CFI takes the controls from you, then does something you seriously disagree with?


Odysseus

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I’m out with a cfi doing pattern work (just time-building stuff, I’m already a rated pilot). Suddenly (getting a weird feeling from the helicopter) the cfi takes the controls. With a worried look on his face he asks if I felt it too, I say yes. He then decides, "We’re going home!"

 

This feeling, possibly new to him, was all too familiar to me. The last time I felt it (fortunately in a hover) I decided to cancel my flight until a mechanic had a chance to look at it, even though then (as with now) the feeling only lasted a handful of seconds then went away, never to return. The flight after me however did not, and had an engine failure! Fortunately for them they were also just in a hover.

 

I mentioned to the cfi that I had an experience like this once before which resulted in an engine failure. Then I mentioned that we could just land at the airport (whose pattern we were still in by the way!), but he insisted we were going home.

 

Home was about seven miles away. Along the way we passed several open fields to which I responded, "We could just set it down there,…or over there?!" To which he told me to be quiet so he could listen to the aircraft.

 

So now we’re crawling seven miles back home at 70kts and 600’ while he stares at the tach ready to execute the perfect auto at any time. So what could I do? Feeling trapped and helpless (as we now pass over trees, wires, and houses) I pushed my ass back into the seat (giving me a nice vertical spine angle) pulled my feet in close, and nervously waited to become a statistic!

 

Fortunately we made it back ok, but the mechanic did find something (with the same part that failed the last time I felt this) and even though they didn’t feel it was serious enough to fix just now (but could wait for the next scheduled maintenance) in the air, you never know?

 

So why not listen to the guy next to you who’s had a similar experience and just land as he recommends? He said if we had landed in one of those fields and nothing was really wrong that it would create bad publicity for the company and he would probably be fired. Ok, fine, I get that, but we still could have landed at that airport (whose pattern we were in!) and no one would have cared!

 

Given my experience this was a Land Immediately situation, but even if I'm just being an overly caucious pussy, it was at least Land As Soon As Practical, and an airport was RIGHT FRICK'N THERE!

 

I realize that given my decision making past (for those who read it) that I'm not really in a position to complain about someone else, but this just really got to me,

 

I think that’s it for me and time-building!

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Well, first glad that you are all ok. Landing in a field is one thing, but landing at an airport is a no brainer for me. CFI's are not perfect, neither are us pilots.

 

But I think I will live by someone else who has 20 more years and a couple ten thousand hours more than me...Matt Zacarro. "Just land the damn helicopter".

 

Basic safety, class number 1, we allow outside influencers to affect our decisions. In this case, just set down at the airport you are at, and have a mechanic drive out. You STILL might have an engine failure after the mechanic checks it, but you have maximized your odds.

 

IS what he did wrong? Really doesn't matter to me, I would have set it down...

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I think you've got the right idea, landing was the right idea. I've had to park a helicopter a few times when something wasn't right, not something that was outlined land as soon as practical/land immediately but something that seemed off.

I would find a different school, not just instructor. I know no one is perfect, but it doesn't seem like that school is fostering a safety first attitude. If he is fearful of bad publicity or getting fired for a precautionary landing I wouldn't want to fly there.

 

Just out of curiosity what happened (vibration/noise)that made you want to land?

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I have a philosophy that the most conservative opinion wins. If feel comfortable with something but the person in the seat next to me doesn't, then we don't do it. If I have passengers and they're not comfortable with something, then we're making alternate plans. Everyone's butt is tattoo'd to the same piece of metal real estate, and regardless of who is in command, everyone has a stake in the outcome of the flight. If someone's not comfortable, they ought not be forced to do something.

 

A hallmark of a good commander in an aircraft, whether it's a flight instructor giving a lesson or the pilot in command of a multi-crew aircraft, is the ability to listen to input. In an airplane when giving a takeoff briefing, the last part is one of the most important; it concludes with "any questions?" that's the time for input from the rest of the crew to question the plan or add input.

 

If you were placed in a situation in which you were made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable, the instructor should have listened, and landed. The place to have that discussion would have been on the ground at that airport. If the instructor told me to shut up so he could listen to the aircraft, I'd have insisted that he drop me at the airport; he could do what he wanted with it after I was safely on the ground.

 

At this point, at a minimum, I'd be making a formal complaint about the instructor, to the school, and I'd refuse to fly with him again.

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So why not listen to the guy next to you who’s had a similar experience and just land as he recommends? He said if we had landed in one of those fields and nothing was really wrong that it would create bad publicity for the company and he would probably be fired. Ok, fine, I get that, but we still could have landed at that airport (whose pattern we were in!) and no one would have cared!

 

Given my experience this was a Land Immediately situation, but even if I'm just being an overly caucious pussy, it was at least Land As Soon As Practical, and an airport was RIGHT FRICK'N THERE!

 

 

Lots of recent talk around this issue. In fact, HAI launched "Land and Live" in 2014. IHST is also covering this issue. Pass along some of the following information to your CFI:

 

Many pilots have perceptional fears for discontinuing a flight, and they fail to focus on the negative consequences of continuing a flight under frail conditions. In certain scenarios, these false perceptions can be a strong influencer over better pilot judgment. A number of perceptional fears may cause a pilot to press on, rather than to discontinue by executing a precautionary landing in response to unexpected conditions.”

 

• Fear of ridicule by other pilots

• Fear of punitive action by an employer

• Fear of FAA enforcement

• Fear of the inconveniences caused

• Fear of losing personal pride or ego

The Safety Bulletin also discusses the decision-making process by a helicopter pilot for making a precautionary landing, i.e., what type of scenario would prompt a pilot to land immediately; what conditions would trigger a landing as soon as possible; and what issues would make a pilot consider to land as soon as practical. The document also highlights the conflicting issue of “deciding to land” versus “reacting to land.”

REF: Precautionary Landings - How do I know when it is best to land?

 

 

“The philosophy is simple,” said HAI president Matt Zuccaro. “As I read many helicopter accident reports, had the pilot made a precautionary landing at some point the accident never would have happened. It’s kind of odd when you think about it, because people in this industry go around telling everyone how wonderful we are because we have vertical lift capability and can land anywhere. And in fact we do on a routine basis. We land on rooftops, corporate headquarters, private residences, ships, piers and in remote areas.”

 

He continued, “If we are so good at landing anywhere, how come we don’t use that feature when we need it the most–to prevent an accident? If the weather is closing in, if you are unsure of your ability to reach your fueling point, if there is a maintenance sound or an indication on the panel or if the pilot is not feeling well physically, why not just stop that sequence of events?”

 

Pilot fears of FAA enforcement actions for making precautionary landings are generally unfounded, Zuccaro said. He said the FAA supports the initiative and so do helicopter companies that support safety cultures. “A precautionary safety landing is almost always a viable option,” he concluded.

REF: HAI Launches Helicopter Land and Live Safety Initiative

Edited by iChris
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Fortunately we made it back ok, but the mechanic did find something (with the same part that failed the last time I felt this) and even though they didn’t feel it was serious enough to fix just now (but could wait for the next scheduled maintenance) in the air, you never know?

 

So what is this failure you are hinting at so very vaguely...?

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I now know that if you are flying a helicopter with hydraulics and you smell a fruity citrus aroma about the cabin area, you are most likely A. Flying over an orange grove -or- B. Spraying out Hydraulic fluid.

Its pretty important to take peoples past experiences into account. My only critique would have been to say this. You are critical of him for "get thereitis" and worrying about the companies reputation however, you were also influence by him being the CFI and you let him tell you to be quiet. You rented the helicopter Im assuming and you were acting as PIC correct? he took the controls from you, a rated pilot? As you move on in your career you will become much less polite in situations like this. I will admit, if I had been you, at your experience and skill set (you mentioned you were building time still) I most likely would have deferred to the CFI as well. Normally, thats the best course.

 

Nowadays, if Im flying and anyone in my helicopter wants me to land after a noticed vibration, smell, shake,...whatever, its not even a question and I would be surprised at myself if I wasnt already looking for a place to land when it was mentioned. Had I been at an airport like you were..... NOT even a question.

 

So... you were right. You were wrong in the sense that you didnt stand up for your decision, but its normal. You deferred to his "experience and training" but you still knew better. The CFI was so unbelievably wrong I wont even go into that aspect.

Edited by Flying Pig
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Bad decisions always seem to happen one after another where a series of them lead to an accident. Stop making them as soon as possible. It's almost like lying, the first one is hard, the subsequent ones get easier and easier. In many cases the first one is the go no go decision. The cfi made a couple bad calls, one after another, fortunately it didnt result in an accident. To the OP, I've been in your shoes and kept my mouth shut when I should have spoken up. It's a hard thing to do but avbug is right, stop the flight, or at least your involvement in it.

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It's a tough situation to be in, when you are expecting the CFI next to you to know better. My immediate thought is that this must be a very very fresh CFI. Is that true? This does not excuse the CFI for his action (or lack thereof), but it does make me more understanding of the situation. If this is a very new CFI, he has about a minute and a half more experience than you do. The fact that he had never experienced the noise / vibration / whatever it was is a big indicator as well.

 

If you wish to make something good out of this situation, incorporate it into your lesson plan on ADM when you start working on CFI. Seems like there are so many things to talk about, and you can make it very personal now.

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Lets not beat up the cfi too bad, hopefully he gets the info ichris posted and is receptive when the OP approaches him. He/she could learn from this and become a great pilot. They are probably not much more experienced then the poster and may have been poorly trained. Maybe we can get them on this site and joining the discussion.

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I am kinda torn on this one. The evaluation by the mechanic after the fact indicates that the CFI's decision was correct... after the fact, which makes the happy outcome accidental. Now, had y'all an accurate idea of what was wrong with the aircraft, and decided to leave a perfectly good airport knowing the potential failure mode and how to deal with it in existing conditions, some logical defense to continuing the flight to base might be persuasive. Maybe.

Landing at that perfectly good airport, on the other hand, would have been the best answer. Get home-itis is a well known killer, and getting it back to base is just another name for it. Deal with what you got, not what you wish it was, and not knowing what's wrong and continuing is russian roulette.

Nothing damages a reputation like making the 6 o'clock news, even successfully landing on a golf course or field. Pictures of the mangled wreck and dead crew are theoretically more damaging from your perspective- you don't want to be the person in the photo on the right even more than the aircraft owners don't want it.

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Decision making comes with experience and reading things like this and accident reports. Hopefully, your CFI realized that you were right and has learned from the experience.

 

This situation is another experience you have learned from to make you a better pilot.

 

Reading your story, I realize that the military environment is quite different from the civilian but, the same principles apply. I think we have all learned from previous mistakes or the mistakes of others.

 

I'm curious what indications you had of pending engine failure? What component was failing?

 

As a new Pilot in Command I had a land as soon as possible EP with passengers over water, thinking this was a catastrophic event I executed a approach into the nearest suitable LZ (open field) on shore. I played the safe card. Maintenence arrived (no issues) then we flew back to base.

 

Some senior pilots later approached me to discuss the incedent, some asked me if there were secondary indications of the EP, I honestly had never thought about that or checked. Some pilots second guessed me, said I should have flown back, some said don't do that in combat, some said nothing to let me contemplate my own conclusion about my decision making.

 

In the end I learned a lot about myseld and my decision making as a Pilot in command, this lesson learned not only helped me but also, a number of pilot in commands in the unit.

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I certainly have a problem asserting myself. I've taken a class on SPRM, but now I think I'll take one on CRM. I've always thought of that as an airline thing, but I guess when 2 pilots are together and its not really an instructional flight (i.e. time-building) we do constitute a "crew", and I need to learn to be more insistent that the CFI next to me treats me like a fellow pilot and not a pre-solo student (which is how I felt on this flight).

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I certainly have a problem asserting myself. I've taken a class on SPRM, but now I think I'll take one on CRM. I've always thought of that as an airline thing, but I guess when 2 pilots are together and its not really an instructional flight (i.e. time-building) we do constitute a "crew", and I need to learn to be more insistent that the CFI next to me treats me like a fellow pilot and not a pre-solo student (which is how I felt on this flight).

Even senior pilots have trouble with this. Some aircraft commanders don't care who you are. I have 2,000 hrs and have had pilot in commands tell me sit there a shut up. It's all based off personalities.

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Back again...

 

Quote from original post- "So now we’re crawling seven miles back home at 70kts and 600’ while he stares at the tach ready to execute the perfect auto at any time."

 

Wrong. Keep your eyes outside, picking perfect forced landing areas and keeping within easy range of one at all times. My experience is that I know/knew before I could interpret a gauge that the power had been interrupted. Collective down, NR and airspeed towards a good landing and look at gauges in your spare time (or ask the other pilot, but that gets into CRM). If you haven't done it already, shoot a couple autos without gauges... 55, 61, 65, 70 knots, exact airspeed is less important to survival than a decent auto to a flat, hard surface.

 

On CRM- the first thing you do is agree who is PIC, period. The PIC is always responsible for decisions, also period. If you can't do this, don't go, final period. I wouldn't fly with ANYBODY I didn't trust, whether I had controls or not. The worst possible outcome is confusion as to who's flying and a wrestling match for control.

CRM isn't about persuasion or who is right, it's about offering and considering information available and using it to shape the best plan. Any input that doesn't distract at a critical moment should be offered and considered, no matter the source.

Present your opinion, but don't argue. If I can get the pilot to rationally explain intentions, even if I don't agree with them, I've accomplished something positive to increase my chances of survival. Again, you don't want confusion as to who is flying the aircraft.

"Getting home" isn't a logical plan unless a reason is offered that increases your safety compared to all other considerations,

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As a CFI during an off-airport instructional flight, with the commercial applicant at the controls, we both noticed a slight “ticking” sound. I told the applicant to head to a plateau on top of a pinnacle. A second later, the helicopter shook violently and the engine quit. The applicant immediately relinquish the controls to me. Why? Because that’s what we briefed during the preflight briefing. That is, if a real emergency occurs, you (the applicant) will initiate the procedure and I will handle the rest…..

 

ADM and CRM starts way before the blades turn. By the description of the events presented by the OP, it would appear no plan was in place if things were to head south. The saying goes, “by failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”

 

BTW, if anyone wants an example of how FITS/SBT can improve ADM and CRM, hereyago…….

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