Blame Assigned

Velocity173 · November 9, 2015

Wally, Mike said they had an operational ATIS at their field of departure. That's pretty black and white when it comes to determining whether or not you have min weather. It's not like what we do in air ambulance when you're departing a base in the middle of nowhere with no weather observation. That is a gray area. Especially going to a road intersection with no ASOS in the entire county.

Yes, aggressive is subjective. For the flight school kids they've seen it first hand. You have half the class going flying with scattered storms in the area and half not. The IPs that go could be judged as aggressive or getting the job done. The other half could also be just inexperienced when it comes to weather or most likely, lazy IPs; yes, they do exist at Rucker. The comparison to Col Holland? Well he flat out broke not only AF regs but flew maneuvers outside the flight manual limitations section. I've heard nothing about the PIC in question doing that on a regular basis.

To say that this could happen to all of us is to say that all Army units are operating in this manner. I disagree with that. This was a clear breakdown in aircrew coordination and a PIC / AMC who appeared to disregarded briefed weather mins at their departure field. I don't even care about a -1 / MEF or whatever the crap he had on paper. They had an ATIS on departure and several ASOSs in the area. There is a difference in departing into legal weather that goes to crap later. In this case, there's no excuse.

Furthermore, what stumps me is how two fairly qualified pilots failed to execute a proper IIMC recovery. We're all vulnerable to spatial D but give me a break, these two should have known better. You hunker down and go through the procedures. We've all been there. Not to mention they're flying an aircraft that's more than capable of flying IMC, unlike your typical, unstable, hand flown, single engine VFR helos.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Velocity173

Jberto89 · November 10, 2015

And that's one problem with the regs, risk assessments, you name it. You can be well within the regulations and still be an overconfident idiot that is an accident waiting to happen (not saying this guy truly was).

I flew with a particularly arrogant, overconfident, and aggressive pilot in Afghanistan. I did not see him do anything that I would consider in violation of regs or briefs. However, he often said, "I'm a helicopter pilot. I'm going to fly it like a helicopter." He would do things that I didn't think were necessary simply because he could. I am a pretty conservative pilot myself as I'd rather save that margin for when I really need it rather than as a point to play around in just because I have the skill to do so.

I said things to the company standardization pilot and to the commander. Nothing ever happened. I ultimately refused to fly with him and was simply assigned to fly with others.

That's what it comes down to. You cannot be afraid to say something. Once you have done all you can do, make it personal and take responsibility for yourself. Had one of these crewmembers said, "We're not going, and if you do it will be without me," perhaps lives would have been saved. And that is sad.

You can laugh and point fingers at me for being a wuss all the way to the commander's office, but I'll be on the ground while you're doing it.

Well said.

stearmann4 · November 10, 2015

By the same metric, you can't label one pilot "aggressive" or dangerous simply because he/she is comfortable flying in conditions or threat levels another isn't, provided they're still in line with the regs. I have flown into WX and terrain that a co-Pilot wasn't experienced or comfortable in. A quick explanation of how I planned for the contingency, and what our "out" was if conditions changed usually puts them at ease. The mishap PC had none of that going on.

Mike-

napoleonpp · November 11, 2015

This is one thing I must work on as a new Aviator, always just going with what the PC says. As a former NRCM, I always just trusted in my front seaters to do the right thing. I never knew anything really about WX minimums. I just trusted my pilots to get me where I was going.

Now I get to see it from the other side. All the factors associated with the mission being briefed, WX minimums, along with just common sense. Not too mention there was no training value on Helocast with their WX, from what I read and heard that was the training they were looking to accomplish anyways.

brackac · December 2, 2015

Waiting on the official release from CRC before I talk about it with my BN. Some strong lessons to be learned from this event, for all experience levels.

zVo · December 2, 2015

Something that gets to me is that they were in a very capable platform. IIMC is a big deal... and they had all the tools to safely recover the aircraft...