Jump to content

Request for action . . .


AdminLB

Recommended Posts

Another effort to reduce flight training benefits for U.S. Military Veterans has recently surfaced. According to the Helicopter Association International (HAI), if passed, the legislation will “damage the helicopter and overall aviation industry by making it much harder for qualified vets to enter the civilian aviation industry as commercial pilots.”

Rotorcraft Pro urges readers to review the position of HAI (below) and contact their Representatives and Senators and ask them to oppose H.R. 3016 prior to Tuesday, February 2, 2016.

READ FULL STORY HERE: http://bit.ly/1nD6MvW


vaq1Tgf66Nu556.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Here are the facts you need to know:

 

H.R. 3016 will cap total VA reimbursement for veterans in flight training at $20,235 per year if they are involved in a four year aviation degree. The program costs for flight instruction in a helicopter or fixed wing aircraft greatly exceed this amount of funding.

 

The VA will no longer pay for the private pilot license and veterans will be required to shoulder this cost on their own or possess a private pilot license before matriculating into a commercial aviation degree program. The cost to obtain a private pilot license averages over $20,000.

 

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that 600 veterans per year will be denied access to flight training with the enactment of this legislation. Over time, this will impact the already worsening pilot shortage..."

 

I don't see any issues with what's proposed. The free lunch had to come to an end. Maybe if they have some skin in the game by paying for their PPL then the success rate will raise. And if they can't do Com, IFR, CFI and CFII with $80,000+ then something is wrong.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the the best thing the VA could do to help out the current ocean of VA trained pilots looking for work. There is no pilot shortage. The VA isn't denying anyone their benefits. They can still go to college, still find a career. They are just going to stop dumping money into a career field where people spend 6 figures and finish their training virtually unemployable.

Edited by Flying Pig
  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why should someone who chooses an aviation career track get more money than someone who chooses some other career path ? The logic of that escapes me.

 

I think a lot of us here may have done the pay for private and GI Bill after thing. I don't think its a we had to do you it so you should have to thing. The whole "skin in the game" will weed out the abusers and cost wasters.

 

As stated, there is no shortage. There was a two hour long line just to hand in a resume to Papillon at Heli Success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most people agree the entire thing got out of control. Then colleges latched on with degree programs, people started convincing the VA that students needed a laundry list of endorsements they didn't need. Etc Etc. The people "fighting" aren't interested in vets they are interested in the funding they bring. The people fighting for the vets are the people who make loads of money off of those same vets.

The 60/40 plan I used wasnt really that bad getting my RW and FW. Sure you had to come up with out of pocket, but I also wasnt going through flight school with loads of other students. When I was working on my Private I had an offer for a CFI position. And that was in So Cal. Tell me in 2016 where you can start your private with people already talking to you about a CFI spot? I almost considered it but decided to stick with police work and fortunately it all worked out. I was one who paid for all of my own ratings before I ever got into LE aviation. I wasnt required to be enrolled in some idiotic degree program so the local college could cash in on me also. I see it just in talking with new pilots I run into in my area. Schools are telling them they can get a job with a commercial and they are showing up at the local EMS operators and even the LE agencies wanting to meet with the managers about an interview with 250hrs. How are students getting through their CFII's still believing they can get an interview with an EMS company with 200hrs? Ill tell you how....because they schools are telling them they can. There is a school near me that is VA approved and only does the instrument rating in an R-66. Huh? The owners reasoning? You need turbine IFR experience to be competitive. Liar Liar pants on fire.

 

So my view from where I sit is that the schools are standing on the stage with a bullhorn yelling and telling everyone to remain calm and then when nobody is looking, they jump into the crowd and get the crowd worked up again. The VA? They dont have any idea what a student needs. They relied on the "industry" for that. And the flight school industry responded with massive pilot factories.

 

Do I claim to know exactly how to fix it? No. But what I do know is there was a time when none of this was an issue and new CFIs didnt seem to have much of an issue finding work. Surely this can land somewhere between then and now. Thats my Utopia anyway.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recently at one school, an instructor asked for a show of hands as to who would even have considered flight training if they had to pay for it, not one hand went up amongst the VA. He then went on and asked if they had to only pay for their private and the rest was covered...again...not one hand.

 

I am not surprised. Schools are in business to make money, so we cant fault them for that. How ever, when no consideration of the commitments of those you approve is made, then the results will begin to speak for themselves.

 

I recently spoke with a part 61 CFI who has a 100% pass rate, and private applicants regularly doing checkrides under 50 hrs and passing. His personal investment into each student, along with the cash out of pocket from each student meshed into a giant ball of success. Along with much more, but the point being each side was invested in the future of the individual as well as the industry.

 

Larger VA schools have become pilot mills. Pushing students at unrealistic paces towards and end goal, and all because of time restraints of approval on funding. Results are students failing, students taking 70, 80, 100+ hrs for private. Classes that start with 25 and by cfii have 3-5 still there.

 

Sure if you take in a big enough drag net, your sure to aquire a few who are quality people with focus, drive, ambition, motivation. These are the ones getting A's and B's in class. These are the ones who are showing up everyday and making it work. But the schools taking in the masses are not shoring up that drag net of wanna be pilots. They dont interview, weigh out, consider, look over past educational efforts.

 

I feel vets have earned their GI money and should have an option for flight training. Its not a hand out and they put their life on the line to have it offered, and in a lot of cases had to experience things that would make most civi's go mad trying to wrap their head around why.

 

These men and women deserve the chance to educate themselves. I agree Flying Pig, I dont have a perfect solution either to fix the process, but to go back to asking the vet to invest into their Pvt rating to then have funding unlocked for the rest....its a great sifter of the waste.

 

I know several VA guys who have, and several who would have with Post 9/11 options. Sadly the show of hands says so much....

 

Those who can and are involved in VA programs...take the time to ask that same question and see the results first hand. Is your school seeking the right candidates?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see any issues with what's proposed. The free lunch had to come to an end.

I take some offense to you using the words "free lunch." (Oh No! Some one's offended on the Internet!!!) These vet's earned their benefits. Are some of them more motivated than others? Yup, and some are going to do what they need to to get a leg up in life. Everything they did was with in the regulations they agreed upon. If the company is at fault (which it sounds like some ethical issues are at play) or the government was stupid do not pin that on these individuals. Some of them spent years in a desert flight line in +100 degree weather making sure my aircraft launched to save some ones life. I'm not sure of your background or if your prior service but let me assure you and many of the civilian trained pilots that being in the military is not an easy walk. Im not saying yours is any less valuable or worthy but it's just a different experience.

 

...and no I am not talking about the standard flag waving patriotic yellow ribbon sticker Facebook meme generating nausea that might irritate you like I am occasionally. I'm talking the basic day to day requirements and responsibilities these young men and women might have had. 10 hour work days, frequent deployments away from home, lifestyle commitments, and constant moving take their toll. These benefits aren't free, they're earned, and if budget cuts, job placement failure, or fraud reign in promises that we're made than so be it...but watch how you use your words.

 

To me like discussed before this isn't about a "free lunch" but poor government oversight and no checks and balances. If a ppl is required and that improves placement rates, than that's what they should do.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big problem I see with the proposed changes is the annual cap. The $20,235 annual cap could be reached shortly after completing one semester. Once the cap is reached, you'd have to pay out of pocket to stay in school. If you choose to stop until the next year, you'd have to drop out, find a job again, possibly move, etc, because the VA will stop paying your housing allowance if you are not enrolled in classes that are part of your degree program. That there would continue to cause a high drop out rate for vets that start a program under those rules. In effect, a vet in a flight training program under those proposed rules would have to pay for more than just the private license to go full time until completion.

 

I agree that better oversight and control of the flight training programs is needed, but this basically stops it in it's tracks for vets that do not have other funding or a significant savings, and the latter is not a common thing among enlisted who get out of the military after one or two enlistments.

Edited by superstallion6113
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think those benefits are completely fair. If they get out of the military and don't have a savings account then they should go work somewhere for a few years and save the difference. It's not the taxpayers responsibility to ensure they can afford any type of schooling they want to go on to. They earn a paycheck, they get benefits, and they serve their country.

Edited by SBuzzkill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct, "they get benefits", the GI Bill being one of those benefits. The problem isn't the tax payer footing the bill. The problem is the VA targeting fight training alone. I could likely spend more of the VA's money in a different degree program, but the flight training program alone is being targeted and restricted. It's the school that needs to be restricted, not the student.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct, "they get benefits", the GI Bill being one of those benefits. The problem isn't the tax payer footing the bill. The problem is the VA targeting fight training alone. I could likely spend more of the VA's money in a different degree program, but the flight training program alone is being targeted and restricted. It's the school that needs to be restricted, not the student.

 

I'm pretty sure the VA doesn't just give a blank check to any Joe Private that just did 2.5 years...every training program has a cap on it, flight training was just over the top. If they didn't have a limit then I'm sure there's a few people that would be going to M.I.T....Stanford...etc...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any other program where the VA pays as much as they do for flight training? You dont hear much about vets going to medical school without paying a dime, or law school. Im fairly sure all of these other educational programs that use the VA have limits. How did flight training get to be a free for all cash cow for these schools?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are caps to private schools, state funded schools have agreements with the VA on tuition for veterans. Some private schools entered into agreements with the VA, these are called yellow ribbon schools. The post 9-11 GI Bill benefit is 4 years at a public school for earning an undergraduate degree. Currently, the only program I am aware that is being targeted for capping is the flight training programs. If you know of any others please inform us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are caps to private schools, state funded schools have agreements with the VA on tuition for veterans. Some private schools entered into agreements with the VA, these are called yellow ribbon schools. The post 9-11 GI Bill benefit is 4 years at a public school for earning an undergraduate degree. Currently, the only program I am aware that is being targeted for capping is the flight training programs. If you know of any others please inform us.

 

Flight schools are private schools, not public.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, I am going to school at Dodge City Community College a public school. Other schools that are authorized to provide the training are all under a private school for the most part. Emery and Riddle is a private school that provides flight training and as such there is a cap applied to that school.

 

Now I agree 100% that abuse is occurring, that is not the fault of any veteran that is enrolled in a flight training program. When a school sees that the government will fund these students the schools and the government is to blame. When I talk to pilots that used their post 9-11 benefits it was a blank check. Students would fly as much as they wanted and instructors would fly with any student that asked. The school made money, the instructor padded his pay check and the student got more hours. That system was a jacked up as a football bat. The school I go to now has set minimums and set maximums. In a semester the student gets 55 hours flight time to complete the 141 curriculum, I am not sure of the ground hours but I think it is near 85 hours ground instruction. For instrument rating it is again 55 hours flight and 108 hours ground to complete the 141 curriculum.

 

So the abuses were there, some schools work to keep the program honest and still provide quality flight training. Some school are going to, have been and are following the silver state motto of take what you can get and forget everyone else.

 

The veterans that use and want to use their post 9-11 benefits only ask for fair and equal treatment across the board. If NO OTHER training program is limited with caps and such then why treat the veterans of flight training any different. The VA and the federal government should have to stick to the words they made into law, just as the veterans stuck to the pledge and oath when we enlisted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about, Revel. Almost every institution and training area the GI Bill covers has limits. Degree granting institutions, non degree granting institutions, technical schools, on the job training, correspondence tests, etc.

 

When I used my VA benefits for college, I was awarded X months of benefits at the current rate. When my months of benefits were exhausted, I paid out of pocket to finish my degree. I got statements all the time telling me how many months I had left. So of there are no limits, I want my money back...and a case of beer for my troubles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pohi,

 

What I am getting at,respectfully, is this. The abuses of the post 9-11 benefits is not uncommon with any area in which the government puts our money into. The bail out of financial institutions and then those same institutions paid out huge bonuses to directors and chairmen, is one example.The fact that abuses occur consistently and egregiously is not new with the GI Bill. The ones abusing these programs should be the ones that are penalized. Not the ones that were promised the benefits, which is one of the largest selling points in recruiting individuals to volunteer for military service.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

which is one of the largest selling points in recruiting individuals to volunteer for military service.

 

I thought it was to serve our country? But if not, then why didn't you sign up to become a Warrant to learn to fly while in the military instead of waiting till after to go to flight school? I'm just curious in general, if all these guys that will be getting "screwed" by the proposed VA changes wanted to be pilots so bad then why didn't you become a pilot sooner?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...