IFR Departure Question

[01CelicaGTS]

A question came up on a recent IFR flight that I planned to fly with an IP. Since we don't have Y-codes installed in the aircraft (UH60L), we cannot file RNAV (/G) flight plans. I planned a flight using radio navigation (VORs). There is a VOR on the airfield (KLSF), and nearest VOR (LGC) that was along our route of flight was 44 NM miles away, 4 miles outside of the 40 NM service volume for that VOR. But, since there is a VOR on the airfield with a 25NM service volume, that was an acceptable route of flight.

 

The first question that came up was whether or not to put LSF (the VOR on the airfield) as the first point on the flight plan. Per the GP (at least my interpretation) I did put LSF as the first point, since I can't go direct to the other VOR without using LSF due to the service volume. The IP said that was correct.

 

However, he then asked me what my plan was to depart. There are no SIDs at LSF, so I told him that I was planning on flying the 348 radial off of LSF, and then when I'm in range of the other VOR, switch over and fly the 168 radial to the station. He said that was wrong. He said I would have to takeoff, overfly the LSF VOR, and then proceed along my route of flight. Of course, all this is in lieu of getting vectors or ATC giving us direction.

 

I thought that I had read somewhere that if the VOR is located on the airfield, you didn't have to do that. I understand if it was a mile or two from the airfield, then I'd have to do that, but essentially I'm taking off from the VOR. Of course now I can't remember where I read that, it was probably a forum.

 

Anyway, what is the right answer? Proceed to the radial, or overfly the VOR?

 

 

[TachedOutOffRoad]

Lawson is class D.

You're going to pick up a clearance on the ground.

Tower will already be expecting what you want.

They will assign a heading to fly and then hand you off to ATL approach.

They are going to put you on an intercept course and hand you back to Carins shortly.

 

You won't just take off in IFR conditions without a clearance. Someone will give you direction. You can always request one while still VMC, but you don't have to be just be circling the airport until then.

 

Could you image taking off with true 100' and 1/4 (or 0/0!) and immideatky circling the airfield in a cloud trying to find the VOR? Is obstacle clearance guaranteed will you circle an airport that doesn't have a circling approach? Sounds like a great way to induce special d. You're just clogging up their airspace and delay other traffic doing something like that.

 

Most procedures are set up for fixed wing/AKA=taking off down the runway and building speed quickly.

 

I'm not going to look through the faraim for you, but what he saying doesn't pass the common sense test, much less work in common practice.

[zion]

To add validity to any answers provided, please add your reference. I’d like to send it to my flight school IP. J

 

I had a great IP during 60A instruments at Rucker. He taught the exact way you explained; to intercept the outbound radial on the airfield then next to the VOR. During a check ride, I did what you and he said, and I got dinged for it by the check pilot. My IP turned to the check pilot, since he had the adjacent table (lol), and started arguing it. It was pretty humorous.

 

A few other IP’s had heard that, but no one ever found a reference.

 

[TachedOutOffRoad]

That's when it's just an IPenis comparison and nobody may even know the answer.

IPs "should" become IPs because they love to teach, re-explain, hone skills, not just belittle and argue over things that contradict themselves in the regs or can't find a reference for.

You have to uphold the standard, but betterment at the end of the day should also be the goal.

If he reports something useful, please report back. Otherwise, you should be doing something important like PTing or making sure you understand the VFR exception rule.

[Yamer]

Okay, so as I understand it, whatever points you put in as your route of flight on your form, have to be overflown. So if you put the LSF VOR as your first point after departure then you're basically telling them you're going to take off, hit that VOR then head out. Maybe that's why your IP is saying that you have to fly it that way, because you wrote it that way... I've never heard of the location of the VOR mattering.

 

You can always use the blanket IFR SID I suppose.

 

Is there an intersection nearby that you can use as your first point?

Edited February 3, 2016 by Yamer

[Jberto89]

All you have are takeoff minimums with obstacle clearance. 330 heading to 1000 before turning right, 400-2, 300/NM. There is no reason to overfly a VOR that's .3nm away from the runway. AIM 5-2-5 (g)(2). "When there is no DP or when the pilot cannot accept a DP, the controller will specify the assigned altitude or flight level, and any additional instructions necessary to clear a departing aircraft via an appropriate departure routing and the route filed." Either a detailed departure route description or a radar vector may be used to achieve the desired departure routing. Wouldn't you just abide by obstacle clearance and get vectored to radial? Also if I remember 91.171 might have some info. If you're within the service volume, +/-4 degrees, and the AF/D doesn't have much to say you should be fine. Tell him you're going to depart VFR next time and pick your clearance up in the air to avoid his bullsh**.

 

Fixed wing civilian perspective. I'm interested to know if it's different with rotary wing in military. Couldn't you just depart direct to CSG or intercept V241 to CSG?

[TachedOutOffRoad]

Theres your source.

 

Points are commonly "fly-by" not "fly-over" as well. Specifically on RNAV.

 

I woundnt put LSF in route of flight box. That does make it look like you're going there. Just PoD.

 

They want to know "route of flight", not necessary what navaids your using. It just like filing for an airway intersection, the navaids aren't listed there, they are trusting you to know how to fix it.

 

Not sure why Im talking instruments stuff anyway when its my GOGGLE stans eval Thursday

[Gomer Pylot]

You don't have to actually overfly any navaid, just be within protected airspace. You can take off and proceed on your route. If there is a tight turn at a navaid, and that's common, you start your turn early and actually miss the navaid slightly. If you're within a mile of the navaid, you're close enough. In real life, you can put in the next station on the VOR and start flying to it, knowing the course, and when the identifier is usable, start flying the indicated course. You are never required to be on the exact centerline of any course, just within the protected airspace. Read up on what airspace is protected for you in different situations. For using VORs, it's pretty wide, and you can legally be anywhere within the route.

[d10]

Since we don't have Y-codes installed in the aircraft (UH60L), we cannot file RNAV (/G) flight plans.

 

Yes you can. The regulation reads, "During IFR flight with equipment that permits the use of precise positioning service, the GPS will be operated in the precise positioning service mode." Without Y-codes, your equipment does not permit the use of PPS. Use SPS like every other airplane on an IFR flight plan. It's 2016.

[Lindsey]

 

Yes you can. The regulation reads, "During IFR flight with equipment that permits the use of precise positioning service, the GPS will be operated in the precise positioning service mode." Without Y-codes, your equipment does not permit the use of PPS. Use SPS like every other airplane on an IFR flight plan. It's 2016.

Okay, that's what I thought. We filed /G in the A/L course, now I'm all confused.

[SBuzzkill]

God the military sucks sometimes eh?

[Velocity173]

Okay, that's what I thought. We filed /G in the A/L course, now I'm all confused.

IP friend said you all have Y code loaded so you're good to go for /G. PPS is a stupid DOD regulatory requirement (not just 95-1). Civilians operate /G with SPS just fine. My Garmin 480 has LPV...all without PPS.

[Joe_P148]

You don't have to actually overfly any navaid, just be within protected airspace. You can take off and proceed on your route. If there is a tight turn at a navaid, and that's common, you start your turn early and actually miss the navaid slightly. If you're within a mile of the navaid, you're close enough. In real life, you can put in the next station on the VOR and start flying to it, knowing the course, and when the identifier is usable, start flying the indicated course. You are never required to be on the exact centerline of any course, just within the protected airspace. Read up on what airspace is protected for you in different situations. For using VORs, it's pretty wide, and you can legally be anywhere within the route.

I'd be careful on the verbage you use in regards to not over flying navaids, im not sure if you are talking about DPs or all insrument maneuvers. We are required to see station passage prior to most turns, this depends on the type of route segment. If my IAF is a VOR navaid, I am required to overfly prior to starting the turn to the inbound course. Intersections and fly by waypoints is a completely different thing.

 

Typically the IFR requirements put on military aviators are more stringent.

[AW1985]

According to the AWR (1753), you may not file \G unless the Y code is loaded. You shall fly in mixed mode. Page two and three cover it all.

 

The POC listed on the AWR is a great resource and should be tapped if there is any confusion. It shouldn't be, but the GPS (128D), continues to be an enigma to recent graduates. It is a battle myself, and the rest of the STANDs shop deals with every new progression.

[CharyouTree]

 

Yes you can. The regulation reads, "During IFR flight with equipment that permits the use of precise positioning service, the GPS will be operated in the precise positioning service mode." Without Y-codes, your equipment does not permit the use of PPS. Use SPS like every other airplane on an IFR flight plan. It's 2016.

I think the intent is that it WOULD permit the use, if loaded. To a unit doing all the things right, the Y code isn't a big deal to have, so I don't think it's really on their radar to NOT use it. Then you get to a Guard unit like mine that couldn't get codes for awhile (we just got them again within the last few weeks).

 

I agree with you, unfortunately in my experience it wasn't interpreted that way (especially at Rucker). I think 95-1 (that's the one, right?) needs to have the verbiage updated. "If PPS is available, it will be used" is more like it. i.e. don't use M mode on the 128D because you "don't have time" to get the Y mode up. (after a code reload, I believe it takes some time, if you don't use M first)

 

 

 

That said if you were taking off from an airport with a terminal VOR, you're likely within the cone of confusion still; just fly outbound and intercept the radial. It's not like taking off from Lowe and going to OZR first...

[Gomer Pylot]

You get station passage indications even if you don't fly directly over the station. I don't recall the military requirements being any more stringent than civilian, but I admit I've been away from the military for a long time. But if IPs are requiring flying directly over every VOR, then the IPs are ignorant.

[Velocity173]

You file for what your aircraft is capable of navigating but you fly what ATC assigns. If you depart 33, ATC is going to assign you departure instructions. When ATL takes you off that, they aren't going to send you back to LSF VOR, they'll say "turn right heading ***, when able proceed direct LGC." If you hear "proceed on course" then tell ATC your intentions of intercepting the 348 off LSF.

 

You IP is being too literal on your route. I'd say that was the popular teaching method in the IE course as well. In reality, while it might be the first point in your route, you may or may not need to go there. If you went off 15, you might well need to over fly it on your way to LGC. It's all about communicating your intentions to ATC.

[Joe_P148]

You get station passage indications even if you don't fly directly over the station. I don't recall the military requirements being any more stringent than civilian, but I admit I've been away from the military for a long time. But if IPs are requiring flying directly over every VOR, then the IPs are ignorant.

I don't think being ignorant is the word Id use. I think if you are evaluating a student how do I know he knows when to turn? Without DME, I don't know where I am in relation to the VOR until station passage or the needle begins to move. It's subject to the interpretation of the standards of the IP/SP/IE.