I'm at the beginning of the learning curve, ready to begin preparation.

p951951951t · February 9, 2016

Hello,

First, I'd like to say that this site has been a terrific resource to me already. These forums are obviously filled with knowledgeable and experienced people and the signal-to-noise ratio seems excellent. Thanks in advance for any advice or discussion.

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About me:

I turned 27 this week, I'm in the final semester of a B.S. in Mathematics from the University of North Georgia. I'm planning on attending graduate school in the fall and I have already been accepted to several schools.

I (obviously) have a keen interest in military aviation. Before college, flying helicopters in the military was what I saw as a dream job. Several of my friends enlisted at that time, but I saw education as a safer bet from where I stood.

Now I am reaching a major milestone in my education, and the itch to see if flying can be a part of my career is still there. I realize also that the window to make a push for it is getting smaller, so I've decided now is the time to put serious consideration into what it would take to make it happen.

The earliest date I would potentially begin the application process would be Fall of 2018, after I have completed my M.S. in mathematics, at age 29.

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What I have going for me:

(tl/dr: I'm am not afraid of challenges and I am patient)

I'm smart, hard working, and I'm able to adapt to adversity. I went from being a high school dropout to graduating college in a very challenging major. I realize that the degree itself may not mean much to others in the big picture, but it's something I was told I would never attain, so it gives me perhaps more pride than it would otherwise.

I interview well and I am self motivated. I know how to get things done and I seek out challenges. I know these all sound like generic things that everyone writes on a resume, but my actions back it up. I am attracted to difficult tasks and goals. I attack problems methodically and enjoying the feeling of completing them.

- Decent undergrad GPA in tough major ~3.0

- I hold several leadership positions on campus and have participated in lots of undergraduate level independent research, presenting work at conferences, etc.

- I'm very technically proficient and I learn new skills very quickly

- I'm fit and healthy. I run 10+ miles a week minimum, maintain a healthy weight, and I know how to manage my body. I don't currently do much strength training, but attaining increased physical fitness is not a struggle for me. Right now it simply isn't top priority.

- 20:40 uncorrected vision last time I was checked

- I have savings and I could pay for myself to get flight training over the next 2 years before applying. I wouldn't have any problem spending 10-15k if needed.

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Now, the bad:

- I've got two arrests on my record. One was for an unpaid speeding ticket, and the other was a misdemeanor criminal trespass charge that took place on school campus related to removing a parking boot from my car. I was friends with one of the student workers who worked for the parking office and long story short, it was the result of a prank gone wrong. The school itself saw no reason for discipline and I entered into a pre-trial diversion for the offense, payed a $250 fine, and had it expunged.

- When I was younger, I had a lot of speeding tickets. I haven't had one in 4 years, and by the time I apply it will have been 6 years.

- I had a medical bill from when I was 19 years old and uninsured that I never paid.

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What kind of information am I looking for?

Well, I have two years to plan and gauge the feasibility of that plan. I want to know what I can do between now and then to maximize my chances.

Examples of the kind of information I want:

- How can I meet individuals who are qualified to offer me a letter of recommendation if they deem fit to do so?

- What types of individuals make suitable LORs for a civilian?

- Does flight training increase my attractiveness as a candidate in a manner that balances the cost both in time and money?

- What steps can I take to mitigate the impact of the blemishes on my record? It's obvious to anyone who looks at my history that I lacked maturity, but it's also equally obvious (at least, I believe so) that I don't lack drive, and by all accounts those issues are behind me and not indicative of my character and work ethic as a whole.

Thanks again for any help you can offer. I really hope that military aviation can be a part of my future!

Luofynerd · February 10, 2016

The moral waiver doesn't get looked at by the board, it is accepted on a case by case basis. If it's not drug and alcohol related I'd give it a shot. Don't let someone who has no part in the selection process tell you no, make someone who gets paid to say yes or no decide your fate. If that fails go officer. Can always revert to pilot at a later date.

dovq2011 · February 10, 2016

If you go officer, you may not always get what you want. If you go through OCS or ROTC, strive to be the #1 dude so you can get what you want. Or you'll end up like me in Ordnance and just hate your life (soon I won't be Ordnance though - score!).

Pirate04 · February 10, 2016

The only problem I think you might have is getting your clearance. This is only a hunch, I am not a recruiter or expert on the matter by any stretch.

Good luck!!

napoleonpp · February 10, 2016

We all make stupid decisions sometimes, especially when younger. I have a lot of speeding tickets from when I was younger, luckily none of them effected my packet. I'm not sure about the arrests though. I know they offer waivers, however I'm not sure what for and how often now that the Army is drawing back and everything is getting harder.

Hopefully someone else can chime in about the arrests. Im not sure how much getting your private license would help either. It definitely wouldn't hurt though. Worse case even if you didn't get picket up you could still fly on the civilian side, and not have to worry about any additional duties. Hopefully someone can chime in to help you out more, but if not just go see a recruiter. If it comes to that, just tell them this is the only thing you're interested in and see what they can do for you.

Definitely give it a shot though. Don't want to look back years from now and think about what could have been.

Brian101193 · February 10, 2016

Why not just apply now?

p951951951t · February 10, 2016

The moral waiver doesn't get looked at by the board, it is accepted on a case by case basis. If it's not drug and alcohol related I'd give it a shot. Don't let someone who has no part in the selection process tell you no, make someone who gets paid to say yes or no decide your fate. If that fails go officer. Can always revert to pilot at a later date.

I'm fairly sure that waivers will inevitably make me more of a longshot and restrict my chances. Also, I realize there is no guarantee what the needs of the Army will be two years from now. Selection may be more or less stringent, so that is both a reason for hope or possibly a reason to worry.

If you go officer, you may not always get what you want. If you go through OCS or ROTC, strive to be the #1 dude so you can get what you want. Or you'll end up like me in Ordnance and just hate your life (soon I won't be Ordnance though - score!).

I probably wouldn't go officer if WOFT isn't an option, just considering my age when entering and the high chance of missing out on a pilot spot even as a commissioned officer. If I can't do WOFT, I think I may be better off committing fully to my current career path, which I also find very fulfilling. Of course, I'm open to opinions about that as well, and I may feel differently in two years.

The only problem I think you might have is getting your clearance. This is only a hunch, I am not a recruiter or expert on the matter by any stretch.

Good luck!!

That is something I worry about as well. From my research, it seems the largest mitigating factor for blemishes relating to clearance is time and a long record of good behavior indicating that the issues in the past are indeed in the past.

That gives me some hope that when I apply for my clearance that it won't be too difficult to write off my minor run-ins with trouble as something that is behind me. I, like I think many others do, experienced a pretty big leap in maturity and direction between 21 and 25. It took me just a bit longer than most to right my ship.

I've never had any issues with alcohol or drugs or anything like that. Honestly, from a few people I have asked about it I have been told that financial/credit issues can matter even more than a few character blemishes during formative years. Luckily, I'm finishing school with almost no debt, and I'll almost certainly be debt free and in great financial standing when I finish grad school (current offer includes free tuition, sizable stipend, and healthcare). I'll admit that I haven't always been the best manager of money, sometimes being late on a payment here or there, and I'd single that out as an area I must make improvements on over the next two years, WOFT or not.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

p951951951t · February 10, 2016

Why not just apply now?

No real reason other than personal preference. I have a pretty good opportunity to go to graduate school fully funded, and I do love mathematics. I enjoy school, so it's not as if I will be suffering.

After completing the M.S., I will have put more time between me and my past mistakes, and I will be more qualified and prepared.

You raise a good point though: will the Army pay significant attention to an applicants age, such that the difference between 27 and 29 might be significant?

- Thanks

p951951951t · February 10, 2016

We all make stupid decisions sometimes, especially when younger. I have a lot of speeding tickets from when I was younger, luckily none of them effected my packet. I'm not sure about the arrests though. I know they offer waivers, however I'm not sure what for and how often now that the Army is drawing back and everything is getting harder.

Hopefully someone else can chime in about the arrests. Im not sure how much getting your private license would help either. It definitely wouldn't hurt though. Worse case even if you didn't get picket up you could still fly on the civilian side, and not have to worry about any additional duties. Hopefully someone can chime in to help you out more, but if not just go see a recruiter. If it comes to that, just tell them this is the only thing you're interested in and see what they can do for you.

Definitely give it a shot though. Don't want to look back years from now and think about what could have been.

My thought on the flight training, based on what I've read from members here, is that It's not a huge factor, but it doesn't hurt.

If that's the case, my thought is that perhaps just a small investment, enough to get a minimal number of flight hours, would be the best approach. The thought being that it at least demonstrates that I have a serious interest, and that I really know it's something I can do and would enjoy doing.

Brian101193 · February 10, 2016

I'm fairly sure that waivers will inevitably make me more of a longshot and restrict my chances. Also, I realize there is no guarantee what the needs of the Army will be two years from now. Selection may be more or less stringent, so that is both a reason for hope or possibly a reason to worry.

I probably wouldn't go officer if WOFT isn't an option, just considering my age when entering and the high chance of missing out on a pilot spot even as a commissioned officer. If I can't do WOFT, I think I may be better off committing fully to my current career path, which I also find very fulfilling. Of course, I'm open to opinions about that as well, and I may feel differently in two years.

That is something I worry about as well. From my research, it seems the largest mitigating factor for blemishes relating to clearance is time and a long record of good behavior indicating that the issues in the past are indeed in the past.

That gives me some hope that when I apply for my clearance that it won't be too difficult to write off my minor run-ins with trouble as something that is behind me. I, like I think many others do, experienced a pretty big leap in maturity and direction between 21 and 25. It took me just a bit longer than most to right my ship.

I've never had any issues with alcohol or drugs or anything like that. Honestly, from a few people I have asked about it I have been told that financial/credit issues can matter even more than a few character blemishes during formative years. Luckily, I'm finishing school with almost no debt, and I'll almost certainly be debt free and in great financial standing when I finish grad school (current offer includes free tuition, sizable stipend, and healthcare). I'll admit that I haven't always been the best manager of money, sometimes being late on a payment here or there, and I'd single that out as an area I must make improvements on over the next two years, WOFT or not.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

In all seriousness, this will be a problem. How many payments are we talking? I was under the impression the amount of debt you have isn't as important, as long as you've been making payments it on time (as long as you aren't in crazy CC debt). If you do decide to wait 2 years make this a priority, as you've stated you will.

No real reason other than personal preference. I have a pretty good opportunity to go to graduate school fully funded, and I do love mathematics. I enjoy school, so it's not as if I will be suffering.

After completing the M.S., I will have put more time between me and my past mistakes, and I will be more qualified and prepared.

You raise a good point though: will the Army pay significant attention to an applicants age, such that the difference between 27 and 29 might be significant?

- Thanks

Waiting is a mistake IMO. If you go ahead and apply now, you can get a lot of this what if stuff out of the way.

1) Are you even medically qualified to be a pilot? I know this kicks a lot of perspective applicants out of the program because they can't pass a MEPS or flight physical. It's better to know now, instead of in two years if this is even an option for you. Also, if you wait until you're 29, it gives you less time to get a waiver before missing the cutoff age.

2) I know you want there to be more time between your transgressions and your application to have a better shot at a potential waiver, but why not apply now and see if you can get them approved.

I think the real "issue" is if you want to start your process now, or in 2/3 years. If grad school is more important to you now, that's one thing. But you're also putting a lot on the line by waiting until you graduate, especially without knowing if this is even a career you can have.

p951951951t · February 10, 2016

In all seriousness, this will be a problem. How many payments are we talking? I was under the impression the amount of debt you have isn't as important, as long as you've been making payments it on time (as long as you aren't in crazy CC debt). If you do decide to wait 2 years make this a priority, as you've stated you will.

Quite a few, but all of those centered around a particular time from about 18-20 when I was broke, uninsured, and didn't have my head in the game.

Since then, I've just had a couple situations where for example I changed banks and forgot to switch over the auto draft for my internet bill to the new card. I also forgot to return a receiver unit after canceling TV service which went to collections before I took care of it.

I currently have a credit card which I have had and used regularly for two years without ever missing any payments.

Waiting is a mistake IMO. If you go ahead and apply now, you can get a lot of this what if stuff out of the way.

1) Are you even medically qualified to be a pilot? I know this kicks a lot of perspective applicants out of the program because they can't pass a MEPS or flight physical. It's better to know now, instead of in two years if this is even an option for you. Also, if you wait until you're 29, it gives you less time to get a waiver before missing the cutoff age.

2) I know you want there to be more time between your transgressions and your application to have a better shot at a potential waiver, but why not apply now and see if you can get them approved.

I think the real "issue" is if you want to start your process now, or in 2/3 years. If grad school is more important to you now, that's one thing. But you're also putting a lot on the line by waiting until you graduate, especially without knowing if this is even a career you can have.

You make a lot of really good points about the drawbacks of waiting. Allow me to give more detail on why I have leaned toward waiting.

- The M.S. in mathematics, and eventually the PhD, are goals that are essential to my long-term life plan of being a researcher in robotics and theoretical computer science. Since I do not currently view the military as a permanent career path (although my mind is always open), it's essential to balance these priorities. Completing the M.S. portion of my education means I will have completed almost all of my formal coursework and passed my prelim exams. The PhD program is very different in that it is primarily based around independent research. I don't want to risk letting my skills get rusty before I have finished all of my coursework, but that is not such a concern for the PhD program.

- If waiting somehow interferes with my ability to succeed, I think I will be able to live with having taken that risk, knowing that I can still fall back on a career path that I also love and am excited about. The job appeals to me greatly and represents a dream that comes from a very different side of my personality from mathematics, but I realize that not everything in life works out for everyone. Other than a potential investment in flight training, which I suspect would be a good experience anyway, I don't really risk a lot in terms of career path by waiting. If, two years down the road, I find out I have been medically disqualified, etc, it would be a big disappointment, but I would accept that it's not in the card for my life.

That being said, You make a great point about possibly finding out about any medical issues ahead of time. Perhaps a good compromise would be to find a way to get an equivalent exam now to avoid wasting extra time, even if I don't plan to apply yet. Is such a thing possible?

zack.colorado · February 12, 2016

Perhaps a good compromise would be to find a way to get an equivalent exam now to avoid wasting extra time, even if I don't plan to apply yet. Is such a thing possible?

You could spend time and money getting a physical somewhere else, but the standards aren't going to be the same as the MEPS standards, most likely leading to a false reassurance.

The best thing to do is get the process started. The order of operations given to me by my recruiter was

ASVAB-(I think that's first, but I used my scores from my first enlistment, so I could be wrong)

SIFT

MEPS PHYSICAL

FLIGHT PHYSICAL

Some of these results have an expiration date. Get a timeline and see if it's possible to get these knocked out now and use them in the future.

I'd also ask the recruiter when you could expect the final word on the waiver as well.

BUT, recruiters are paid to put people in and the guy you talk to now probably won't even be at the same recruiting station by the time you enlist... So he might not be super excited to help you. So maybe you shouldn't mention your timeline.

Just 2 cents from another applicant