napoleonpp Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I have to redo my personal logbook due to some big mistakes at the beginning, luckily I'm still pretty new so not much to redo. I'm still unsure of how I want to log my time however. It seems that everybody in the Army I talk to logs it different. Do you log it per FAA or Army when it comes to Pilot in Command and Second in Command? I talk to some who say they log only their actual Army PC time down as Pilot in Command, because this helps with their close outs at the end of the year. Then everything before they got signed off PC and when they aren't the acting PC, they log as Second in Command. Also another told me that even if I log it all Second in Command, then civilian employers will consider and convert that to civilian PC time. Then I have others that tell me to log it per FAA since it's my civilian logbook. For example, if I fly 3 hours, then log 1.5 as Pilot in Command and 1.5 as Second in Command since I would be on the controls for approximately half the time. Just looking to see what most people are doing. I'm a 64 guy and have decided I'm going to log my NVS and NVG time separately. Then log my unaided time under the Night column of the civilian logbook. Then if need be I can just add all 3 together for total night time for future employers. Thanks for any input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 My IP told me to log my time per the FAA standards because you get extra minutes doing run up? I'm not sure if I remember that correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napoleonpp Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 That was another argument. I've heard from multiple people that if you log per the Army, then civilian employers will add 10-20% of flight time since they log different. I've heard this quite a bit. So with your logging you log a few more mins in your logbook than what's on the -12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Yes, I've been adding about 20 minutes. But that's a Rucker/gunnery run up and taxi time. I'm sure a Day VMC run up at the unit might be 5 minutes, I'll let you know in a few weeks when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Yes, I've been adding about 20 minutes. But that's a Rucker/gunnery run up and taxi time. I'm sure a Day VMC run up at the unit might be 5 minutes, I'll let you know in a few weeks when I get home. It's not runup. It's when the aircraft begins moving under its own power for the purposes of flight. To look at airplanes, for example: Army says when you begin your takeoff roll. FAA says, well...when you begin moving. Headed over to the deice pad before you take off? Start logging (deice is part of the flight). Taxing to the other side of the airfield to get to the hangar, or a different terminal? Don't log it. Now transfer it to helicopters. Obviously, once you've taken off, you're flying. Count it. Army and FAA. If you're ground taxiing to a different area for your HIT check before you take off, log it FAA. Army doesn't start until you pick it up for your hover check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Thank you for the clarification. I need to learn more about FAA rules. The Army is horrible about teaching it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe_P148 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I log per 95-1. I'll explain my changes when I get my final 759 upon retirement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) From the Civilian FAA side there are letters of interpretation that define what should be logged as PIC. Such as mentioned above, when the aircraft is moving under its own power until it stops. However I have yet to find but a very few pilots that do that, including having worked directly with the FAA AFS60 training team, I was surprised to see them not agree, but happy that they see what I see as far as logging time. I log time from start up to shut down. Here is why.As a pilot, I am held responsible for any and all actions good or bad and for any and all incidents or accidents while behind the controls of an aircraft that is operating. So because of that serious responsibility on my shoulders, its logged when rotors are moving. Now aside from that, we have aircraft with hobbs meters that log time with oil pressure and we have aircraft with hobbs meters that log time with collective being raised. So hobbs meters are there to keep track of engine times so that ships can be maintained to regulations. If your flying an oil pressure equiped ship it logs time from start to shut down. Even if you sit down for a while or mutiple times during a flight. Example flight training, discussing the maneuver on the surface for a minute before going at it again. These flights often could have 15-25 minutes of an hour literally not moving due to maneuvers being worked on. Then you have collective driven hobbs. If no oil pressure hobbs is ever installed and the same type of flying is done, then a similar flight will log significantly less hobbs time. Thus the reason pilots will add .2 to a typical flight per start up and shut down. My only issue that I observed is over the course of an OH time limit, how many hours past does that engine actually run? Only ships with both types of hobbs installed would even know. So for me, if rotors are moving, and I am on board for the purpose of flight, I log time. Edited February 10, 2016 by WolftalonID Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Per the different types of meters, that's something I find interesting about the 172 I'm flying. It's got one that's oil pressure driven. Clock starts at 1x when the pressure is above 20 I think. The tach has a meter that is based on engine rpm. 2400 or whatever is 1x, and 1200 would be .5x... Logged per the Hobbs. I guess they can accurately gauge how many revolutions the engine has gone through that way, vs just time it was running. Fixed wing, man... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity173 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I logged per Army 95-1 and made no adjustment in my civ logs. I didn't need a .1 here or there to get a flying job. Currently log what the Hobbs shows since it's logging skids up to skids down. Edited February 10, 2016 by Velocity173 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Do you calibrate your meters? Do you know precisely the initiation and cessation points of the timed interval? If not, how do you know what is accurate? You are presenting a 'reliable record' which should be precise and factual: no rules of thumbs, equivalency or conversions to argue. So: I know how accurate my watches, etc. are. Flight time only, since 1968. Unless there's adverse legal issues, I would maintain my own record. It might vary from another source's record, but that's a separate issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Most of my time was logged in aircraft with no meter installed, so it was done with a watch. I've never logged anything other than collective up time, and not always that. I only logged when I was actually flying. Just hovering to another pad was never logged. I never logged time running on the ground. I could have probably a thousand more hours by logging time running on the deck, but I've never done that. In the Army, I logged by 95.1, and as a civilian I logged what was charged to the customer, or went into the maintenance log. When I flew aircraft with a Hobbs meter, I just used that time, because it's easier. I don't know exactly how accurate the Hobbs is, but it's certainly accurate enough for logging maintenance inspection times, so it's accurate enough for me to log flight time. If the FAA accepts it for maintenance inspections, they have to accept it for pilot flight time. At least that's my opinion, and I'll probably stick to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napoleonpp Posted February 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 How did you log Pilot in Command time vs Second in Command? Did you log Pilot in Command for the entire flight every flight? I wasn't sure how a civilian employer would look at all your hours in your logbook and see 2,000 Pilot in Command hours and no Second in Command hours. I figure that would look fishy coming out of the Army. I know some people that log every flight as Pilot in Command. I know others who log about half of every flight as Pilot in Command and the other half the flight as Second in Command. They say since FAA considers Pilot in Command to be the sole manipulator of the controls and they fly about half of each flight. I know others who log all their flights as Second in Command until their unit signs them off as a Pilot in Command, at that point they start logging as Pilot in Command in order to keep their PC and PI hours separate. I'm just trying to look into what would be more beneficial to me in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity173 Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 How did you log Pilot in Command time vs Second in Command? Did you log Pilot in Command for the entire flight every flight? I wasn't sure how a civilian employer would look at all your hours in your logbook and see 2,000 Pilot in Command hours and no Second in Command hours. I figure that would look fishy coming out of the Army. I know some people that log every flight as Pilot in Command. I know others who log about half of every flight as Pilot in Command and the other half the flight as Second in Command. They say since FAA considers Pilot in Command to be the sole manipulator of the controls and they fly about half of each flight. I know others who log all their flights as Second in Command until their unit signs them off as a Pilot in Command, at that point they start logging as Pilot in Command in order to keep their PC and PI hours separate. I'm just trying to look into what would be more beneficial to me in the future.For PIC I also logged AR 95-1 PC in my civ log books. Once again, I didn't need extra PIC time in my civ logbooks to get a job. Most require 1,000 hrs. I had like 2,500 hrs the Army way. Even in my interview, my hiring manager asked "that's Army, briefed PIC correct?" Yes, yes it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I log time from start up to shut down. Here is why.As a pilot, I am held responsible for any and all actions good or bad and for any and all incidents or accidents while behind the controls of an aircraft that is operating. So because of that serious responsibility on my shoulders, its logged when rotors are moving. Being held responsible for something is not the same as flying. No matter how "serious" it is. The reg's are pretty clear. If you want to count the blades turning as an aircraft"moving under its own power," you are seriously grasping. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velocity173 Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Being held responsible for something is not the same as flying. No matter how "serious" it is. The reg's are pretty clear. If you want to count the blades turning as an aircraft"moving under its own power," you are seriously grasping. Especially since the FAA's Chief Counsel said spinning rotor blades don't count for moving under its own power for flight. Edited February 11, 2016 by Velocity173 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akscott60 Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Spinning blades as time? With the amount of ground runs I have done, that is another couple hundred hours. I log per AR 95-1. Period. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N67RA Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Pilot-in-command is way more complicated than just flying an aircraft, fixed or rotary; that's the easy part. The Hobbs meter determines the amount of time a pilot exercises responsibility over an aircraft. I would say the most stressful part of PIC is the time spent on a large and busy airport surrounded by class B or C airspace. The flying part is easy, especially when you leave the airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Logging P time can be complicated. You can log P time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls. You can also log it when you're the PIC in an aircraft that requires two pilots even if you're not doing the flying. Thus it's possible for both pilots to legally log P time for an entire flight, if the SIC does the flying. The FAA has no PIC category for logging flight time. Edited February 11, 2016 by Gomer Pylot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N67RA Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 That is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brackac Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I'm sure a Day VMC run up at the unit might be 5 minutes.I'm very interested in how you think an Apache can be run up in 5 minutes. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsey Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 Pilot-in-command is way more complicated than just flying an aircraft, fixed or rotary; that's the easy part. The Hobbs meter determines the amount of time a pilot exercises responsibility over an aircraft. I would say the most stressful part of PIC is the time spent on a large and busy airport surrounded by class B or C airspace. The flying part is easy, especially when you leave the airspace.Careful, your PPL experience is showing . There is way more to flying and being PIC/PC than flying in B and C airspace. That stuff is easy. You just got picked up for WOFT; there's a lot more complicated stuff than airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napoleonpp Posted February 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I'm very interested in how you think an Apache can be run up in 5 minutes. I did a MTF in a 64 yesterday where the run-up took maybe 7 mins from APU start up to Departure. Given this is very unusual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N67RA Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I've tried to stop and hover to make things easier, but the airplane doesn't like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsey Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 I've tried to stop and hover to make things easier, but the airplane doesn't like that.Are you still referring to B and C airspace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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