How do you log flight time?

[eagle5]

Talk about over analysis. Lol

Why not count the rotating beacon as "moving under its own power".

Because its part of the airport. lol

 

...besides it only starts to rotate at night or in IMC.

[N67RA]

Because its part of the airport. lol

 

...besides it only starts to rotate at night or in IMC.

Hey bud, you got one on your aircraft too. Lol

[Gomer Pylot]

Rotating beacons on aircraft have long been obsolete. I haven't seen one in many years. All I've seen have been strobes, which don't move at all unless the entire aircraft moves.

 

And logging flight time when only the rotors are turning is wrong. You can just as easily log time sitting in your chair at home with your logbook. Both are done, and both are wrong. But it's your logbook, and your integrity on the line.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Gomer Pylot

[napoleonpp]

...what driveshaft?

The #7 driveshaft on the 64

 

NOE doing pitch back turns? I look forward to seeing that video on youtube.

 

 

I'll be sure to get right on that lol

 

With an APU its not moving under its own power.

Neither is the fuselage under its own power in that logic then. Since the engine turns the driveshaft, which turns the transmission which turn the rotors, which then produce the lift to taxi or lift off. (Yes just a broad generalization)

[eagle5]

The #7 driveshaft on the 64

 

I'll be sure to get right on that lol

 

 

Neither is the fuselage under its own power in that logic then. Since the engine turns the driveshaft, which turns the transmission which turn the rotors, which then produce the lift to taxi or lift off. (Yes just a broad generalization)

Correct no part of the aircraft is moving under its own power while using an "auxiliary power unit".

[eagle5]

. You can just as easily log time sitting in your chair at home with your logbook.

 

Why so many of you resort to ridiculousness when arguing your point is beyond me? I'm simply using observable logic that when I engage the rotors and they start spinning that I see that the aircraft is indeed moving under its own power for the purpose of flight.

 

I know I'm not alone, since every CFI who has filled out my logbook after a flight (including 2 DPEs) has used the hobbs time (which in an R22 is engine on to engine off) to log my flight time. If so many of us are wrong, then perhaps the FAA should simply change the definition of flight time to read;

 

Flight Time begins when, under its own power, an aircraft's wheels/skids/floats leaves a surface for the purpose of flight and ends when its wheels/skids/floats return to a surface.

 

Why would 2 different DPEs in 2 different States fill out my logbook incorrectly?

[N67RA]

Good point

[napoleonpp]

Why so many of you resort to ridiculousness when arguing your point is beyond me? I'm simply using observable logic that when I engage the rotors and they start spinning that I see that the aircraft is indeed moving under its own power for the purpose of flight.

 

I know I'm not alone, since every CFI who has filled out my logbook after a flight (including 2 DPEs) has used the hobbs time (which in an R22 is engine on to engine off) to log my flight time. If so many of us are wrong, then perhaps the FAA should simply change the definition of flight time to read;

 

Flight Time begins when, under its own power, an aircraft's wheels/skids/floats leaves a surface for the purpose of flight and ends when its wheels/skids/floats return to a surface.

 

Why would 2 different DPEs in 2 different States fill out my logbook incorrectly?

You can probably think Shindig for that. I think that thread is rubbing off on all the others

[eagle5]

Ha, that guy's becoming a legend!

[stace]

Here is some interesting flight time logging food for thought:

Logging Flight Time - Military vs. Civilian

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/logging-flight-time-military-vs-civilian-stacy-sheard?trk=prof-post

 

[N67RA]

Very informative article

[Wally]

"- LOGGING TOTAL FLIGHT TIME

While the military tracks actual flying time, civilian pilots log Flight Time - or what is commonly referred to in the Airline Industry as Block Time or Chock Time (chocks out, chocks in)."

 

In almost 50 years, I've never heard of "Block Time or Chock Time" unless there was a contractual specification for that method for customer billing. What about maintenance/admin flights not charged to that customer? Do you not log those?

 

"*FLIGHT TIME is defined in FAR Part 1.1 as: Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." has been the accepted standard for pilot log books, which record various categories of PILOT flight time.

 

To the point:

 

- TIPS & GUIDANCE

Military pilots - your logbook should reflect your hands-on (PIC) flight time, your military crew or seat position (e.g. AC, PI, PC, IE, MP, etc) does not necessarily apply when it comes to logging PIC time .

It is highly advisable to keep your own Pilot Logbook, with entries in accordance with FAR Part 61.51. (Transfer any existing endorsements - no additional verifications are required).

If you're going to an interview, bring your actual Pilot Logbook - not your military flight records (i.e. DA 759, etc.)

Most civilian helicopter pilots have no idea that the military logs flight time differently. In the helicopter industry – if you happily draw attention to the fact that you’ve, “Done your military logbook conversion” – that could start you on a conversation that has you quoting FARs and earning you suspicious looks from civilian pilots that have no idea what you’re talking about. However, if a knowledgeable person asks if you’ve made any conversion or adjustments to your time – be able to comfortably explain.

 

Here is the problem: If an applicant unquestionably has the experience required, let's say 5,000 hours versus the 2000 required, would the applicant gain anything by "adjusting/converting" military time? No. Only a minimal applicant would, which presents a quandary: an official record that varies from what is presented, with the motivation of being qualified. That's a vulnerable moral position...

[Velocity173]

 

Why so many of you resort to ridiculousness when arguing your point is beyond me? I'm simply using observable logic that when I engage the rotors and they start spinning that I see that the aircraft is indeed moving under its own power for the purpose of flight.

 

I know I'm not alone, since every CFI who has filled out my logbook after a flight (including 2 DPEs) has used the hobbs time (which in an R22 is engine on to engine off) to log my flight time. If so many of us are wrong, then perhaps the FAA should simply change the definition of flight time to read;

 

Flight Time begins when, under its own power, an aircraft's wheels/skids/floats leaves a surface for the purpose of flight and ends when its wheels/skids/floats return to a surface.

 

Why would 2 different DPEs in 2 different States fill out my logbook incorrectly?

Probably because the DPEs were doing it by convience instead of by what the FAA defined as flight time.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2007/lloyd%20-%20(2007)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

 

Also, no one is saying the wheels have to leave the ground. That's Army regs and not FAA. They just have to be moving for the purpose of flight.

[stearmann4]

Whatever technique you choose to log your time is entirely up to you (Pt 61 vs 95-1). I use Pt 61 standards simply because I was doing it before I ever went through flight school and I just never stopped. The important thing is to keep some sort of log on your own because I have more than one annual 759 close out that was missing in excess of 100+ hours. I used my personal log to correct the 15P's record keeping.

 

As far as the adding 20% thing from employers, I've never seen it. I've done some military resume screening for a company I do some work for, and for our purposes all that matters is total helicopter time, and turbine PIC time (as per Part 61) Its all driven by insurance, particularly EMS.

 

You can do the detailed and common sense conversion to make all your times conform to Pt 61 standards (which benefits you), but if you're just barely meeting the minimums for a particular job its going to be apparent that you're stretching the regs to get to a number. If a guy is 1,000 hours over our minimums, I just check the box and move on. If he/she's at the line, then I might be inclined to review their logbook and start asking some questions. If you can't speak intelligently on the regs you used as a basis for manipulating the numbers you put on a resume, then you're probably fudging other stuff too. Regardless,if you say on paper you're a 2,000 turbine helicopter PIC, if I go fly with you I expect you to fly like a pilot with 2,000 hours of experience. Its painfully obvious within the first 15 minutes if you overstated your experience.

 

Kind of like doing taxes, you can justify almost any write offs you can dream up, but if you get audited, you'd better be able to produce some receipts, or a black and white reference to back up your claims.

 

Lastly, if you get your walking papers after a poor showing and short period of employment from one helicopter company, it can be a downward spiral from there. When I get a resume from a pilot who had a short career at a former employer, the first thing I do is pick up the phone and call the previous chief pilot. Its the industry standard.

 

Mike-

[napoleonpp]

Whatever technique you choose to log your time is entirely up to you (Pt 61 vs 95-1). I use Pt 61 standards simply because I was doing it before I ever went through flight school and I just never stopped. The important thing is to keep some sort of log on your own because I have more than one annual 759 close out that was missing in excess of 100+ hours. I used my personal log to correct the 15P's record keeping.

 

As far as the adding 20% thing from employers, I've never seen it. I've done some military resume screening for a company I do some work for, and for our purposes all that matters is total helicopter time, and turbine PIC time (as per Part 61) Its all driven by insurance, particularly EMS.

 

You can do the detailed and common sense conversion to make all your times conform to Pt 61 standards (which benefits you), but if you're just barely meeting the minimums for a particular job its going to be apparent that you're stretching the regs to get to a number. If a guy is 1,000 hours over our minimums, I just check the box and move on. If he/she's at the line, then I might be inclined to review their logbook and start asking some questions. If you can't speak intelligently on the regs you used as a basis for manipulating the numbers you put on a resume, then you're probably fudging other stuff too. Regardless,if you say on paper you're a 2,000 turbine helicopter PIC, if I go fly with you I expect you to fly like a pilot with 2,000 hours of experience. Its painfully obvious within the first 15 minutes if you overstated your experience.

 

Kind of like doing taxes, you can justify almost any write offs you can dream up, but if you get audited, you'd better be able to produce some receipts, or a black and white reference to back up your claims.

 

Lastly, if you get your walking papers after a poor showing and short period of employment from one helicopter company, it can be a downward spiral from there. When I get a resume from a pilot who had a short career at a former employer, the first thing I do is pick up the phone and call the previous chief pilot. Its the industry standard.

 

Mike-

I appreciate that answer. I decided I'm going to log my total aircraft and PC hours per 95-1 on my paper logbook. I'm going to log civilian total aircraft hours and PC hours on my logbook app and will routinely print it out.

 

I've already had about 6 flights missing from my printout of my last few months of flights.

[kona4breakfast]

I had a DPE tell me to interpret the regs in your favor as much as possible. He had quite a bit of time in the airlines and felt that the way the FAA interpreted the regulations was unfair to helicopter pilots. Personally, I think pilot time starts when the stoves come on, but I don't log that way because I wouldn't be able to win that argument with an FAA guy. It's like being married: you can be right or you can be happy.

 

My advice:

 

- Read the FARs for yourself. Get a paper copy. FARs change, FYI. You'd have to be familiar with what an NVGO used to be to figure out what an NVGO is now.

 

- Keep a log of your times IAW 95-1 to ensure you meet minimums and to verify accuracy of your CAFRS records.

 

- Also keep a log of your times IAW FAA regs. I'd recommend a simple spreadsheet, unless there's a program out there that lets you have infinite columns. An example why: I just decided to break out my sling time, as it will become relevant soon. So I have columns for Class A, Class B, Class B (LL), Class B (VRLL), Class C and Class D. That's 6 columns just for external loads. The more anal you are with details now the less scrambling you'll have to do when you need it.

 

You'll likely only need to produce your logbook when you're getting a new rating, your first job and your first card.

 

If you do 20 years and retire with 3000 hours, this is all silly talk and no one really cares. If, like me, you left active duty with 800 hours, do some Robbie flying, guard flying and hustling to get your foot in the door, expect for them to want to see your logbook AND your 759 for your first job, as you had better log total and PIC time IAW FARs or you will be starting a different career.

 

When I produced mine, the chief pilot basically just wanted to make sure that the difference between the two was reasonable and that I could justify that difference by citing the language in the FARs.

 

Ultimately this is an ethical question. Producing your 759 when you are asked for your aeronautical experience record for your first civilian job after retirement from the Army is just as improper, with respect to the regulations, as logging all of your flight time in the Army as PIC. Ethically, it's a whole different story.

[Creep0321]

As far as logging flight time during primary/instruments/bws (with no prior flight time) what is recommended?

 

I remember reading somewhere that you can/should just wait till the completion of common core and make one entry for the type helicopter?

 

I start flying next week so just trying to get a heads up before than, thanks.

[napoleonpp]

As far as logging flight time during primary/instruments/bws (with no prior flight time) what is recommended?

 

I remember reading somewhere that you can/should just wait till the completion of common core and make one entry for the type helicopter?

 

I start flying next week so just trying to get a heads up before than, thanks.

 

 

That's what I did. However, only because I didn't start logging my time until I showed up to my first unit. We had one of our IPs in the 64 course email each of us our -12 Summary. It had all of our flight hours from Primary, Instruments, BWS and the Apache Course. I then just put one entry for the Bell 206 and one for the Apache. That's what I did anyways. If I would have thought about it though, I would have logged each flight from the beginning. You never know how many flights might get dropped from the system or never put in. Just make sure you have a complete understanding of how you want to log it before you start. Otherwise you will have to start over....like I did.

[Creep0321]

Well from what I have read, it seems like a good idea would be to keep a paper log IAW 95-1, and a digital log (fore flight) IAW part 61.51?.... Which I am reading now, cause I need a break from UH-72 systems.

[CharyouTree]

As far as logging flight time during primary/instruments/bws (with no prior flight time) what is recommended?

 

I remember reading somewhere that you can/should just wait till the completion of common core and make one entry for the type helicopter?

 

I start flying next week so just trying to get a heads up before than, thanks.

 

If you're going through the effort of a logbook now, do it right, from the start. Log every flight individually. You may get actual weather time, none of mine made it to my 759. Don't know if that's different since CAFRS implementation...

It's all going to be dual received until you earn your wings (If they go to some craziness and start giving you wings after the Lakota... whatever, I guess...), except for any "solo" you may do (...I doubt it, but who knows?)

 

Get back to studying what matters...

[stace]

Log Flight Time In accordance with FAR Part 61.51 - want plain english?

You need to log time for each flight - line-by-line. Chocks OUT, to Chocks IN (when the flight is complete).

 

Check this out!

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/logging-flight-time-military-vs-civilian-stacy-sheard?trk=prof-post

[eagle5]

Having just reached 1000 hours and finally landed a job that pays a "liveable wage" where I'll be flying my ass off in a sweet, airconditioned, turbine, I've decided that (from now on) only "skids up to skids down" is loggable!

Edited March 15, 2016 by eagle5

[stearmann4]

Just finished the UH72 AQC, quirky little bird, not my idea of a suitable primary trainer though..

 

Mike-

[CO2WO]

Just finished the UH72 AQC/IPC, quirky little bird, not my idea of a suitable primary trainer though..

 

Mike-

What are your thoughts, Mike? Watching the some of the IPs fly out at Cairns several months ago, it seemed kinda squirrelly close to the ground. Even with SAS??

[stearmann4]

I am by no means an authority on the UH-72, but between the barn door triple tail, and SAS constantly making corrections, it's a challenge to keep it straight. You can feel it moving around without any inputs, all the worse if you've got a strong wind from any direction. I'm sure it'll grow on me. I will say a Little Bird is more stable in a hover which surprised me.