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Military to Civilian Lessons Learned

military transition lessons learned knowledge sharing

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#21 Joe_P148

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:14

Elwood, thanks for thathe thorough write up. Did you encounter any former Army pilots during your transition?

One thing I'd like to highlight is this, civilian pilots may resent the fact that I was spoon fed. But, we volunteerd to defend our country, fly in terrible weather, under fire and do it all while being away from our families. By no means does this mean we deserve special recognition or take away from civilian pilot's importance.

I worked for every flight hour I have through studying, planning, briefing and waiting for years to have the seniority to get up on the flight schedule.

I'll note that checking your ego at the door is important but so is appreciating different talents from different backgrounds and not being jealous of how one accumulated their flight hours.

How was the written ATP process? Would you recommend getting that sooner rather than later, even years from retirement?

#22 CharyouTree

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:24

How was the written ATP process? Would you recommend getting that sooner rather than later, even years from retirement?

 

Joe,

 

If you've got an O6 who will sign off on it, you can get the examiner to sit in the back of a blackhawk. As long as the flight is being done for your normal APART rides, and not just for your own benefit, it (theoretically) can be done.   (See the Summary of change in 95-1)

 

If I was still flying Blackhawks, that's what I'd (try to) do.  If I go back to flying them...that's what I'll (try to) do.


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#23 napoleonpp

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:14

Dang I wish I could do that, would be hard in a 64 haha.

 

I have decided to keep two logbooks. One per 95-1, to ensure the accuracy of my 759s. One logged per FAA for when I get out. I am logging it according to Part 61. It says you can log PIC when you are the sole manipulator of the controls, which was all I was planning to log as my PIC time in my civilian logbook.

 

"(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;"

 

However according to your write-up I can log all my time once I make RL1 as PIC in my civilian logbook, due to the fact that I am in an "approved Pilot in Command training program". Would future employers never wonder why I have 130 SIC time, but I have 2,000 hours of PIC time? Sorry I just want to ensure that I don't log 12 years of flight time the wrong way.

 

"(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—"



#24 aeroscout

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 15:09

I like this thread almost as much as "Fudging the Logbook" !


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#25 highside7r

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 16:42

Ross, good read and I was tracking most of what was written. What I have found on the fixed wing side, very similar to your notes, is the whole networking at events (OBAP, WIA, etc). I initially didn't think this would be as important on the rotary side. My own networking was to keep tabs on guys that got flying jobs after the military, especially my former SPs, many are chief pilots now.

 

The CFI gouge will hopefully benefit a buddy that is doing the Robbie thing, although I think he is too far down the rabbit hole to turn around. Just helped him fly off the SFAR req's, my 1st time in a R22.


DUSTOFF

#26 Spike

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 17:04

One of the benefits of being ex-military is; a number of state and federal government agencies have Veterans preference laws which they must abide by. These laws provide benefits to Vets which civilians cannot get. Specifically, as long as you meet the minimum requirements, Vets are automatically “first pooled” regardless of past experience. On the other hand, the best a civilian can hope for is “second pool" ala, never going to happen.....


Edited by Spike, 23 February 2016 - 17:04.

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#27 Wally

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 18:01

You don't need an FAA/anything approved logbook for flight time. What you need is a "reliable record" in any format, modern spreadsheets are wonderful things. Reliable means, among other things, that you record the information in a timely fashion. Do it regularly, print it occasionally and sign it. I know pilots who enter attestations of accuracy with the signature, but I've never had any of my records questioned. Expect to show paper at some point.

 

Enter leg lengths and other specifics as you necessary. Different certs and different jobs have different definitions. Mostly, you need to log leg lengths, other specifics for the FAA. Job descriptions that say minimum XC usually don't much care if the XC was 10 miles or a 210. Spreadsheets ROCK!

 

Know that all the columns don't have to sum to any specific, for instance all my PIC and SIC don't equal my TT, there's instruction received in the mix. I don't grock RL1 or other modern military terms, so I can't translate those, but the FAA definition of PIC is pretty clear. I didn't have any doubt about logging PIC whether I had aircraft commander orders or not- If I'm responsible and stirring the stick I'm logging PIC.


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Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#28 CharyouTree

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 19:39

Wally, for the record, RL is readiness level. When you get to your unit, you get an eval flight, and most likely coming from flight school, you're RL3.  Base level tasks... hovering flight, slope landings, whatever. You only fly with an IP. RL2, you can fly with a PC, but only in tasks you've been evaluated on, in addition to those base tasks.  Now you're working on "mission tasks". Multi-ship, sling loads, what have you.

 

RL1, you're a mission-ready pilot. Your next goal is PC. Which is why some people say you can log all that time as PIC; you're theoretically in a training program. (PCs are supposed to be the primary unit trainer, so... it adds up). Me personally... I went with hands-on time from the point I got out of flight school.



#29 napoleonpp

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 20:31

Wally, for the record, RL is readiness level. When you get to your unit, you get an eval flight, and most likely coming from flight school, you're RL3.  Base level tasks... hovering flight, slope landings, whatever. You only fly with an IP. RL2, you can fly with a PC, but only in tasks you've been evaluated on, in addition to those base tasks.  Now you're working on "mission tasks". Multi-ship, sling loads, what have you.
 
RL1, you're a mission-ready pilot. Your next goal is PC. Which is why some people say you can log all that time as PIC; you're theoretically in a training program. (PCs are supposed to be the primary unit trainer, so... it adds up). Me personally... I went with hands-on time from the point I got out of flight school.


Yeah that's what I'm leaning towards. Logging just my stick time as PIC while I'm a PI.

#30 01CelicaGTS

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 13:39

I don't think that logging flight time as PIC once you are RL1 really checks out.

 

One of the things that you "missed out on" getting your commercial license on the Military's dime as opposed to going to a civilian flight school is interpreting the FARs.  I remember going to multiple classes at my civilian flight school when I was getting my commercial license that were all about how to interpret and read the FARs.  These classes included case studies and were meant to keep you out of trouble. 

 

Anyway, this is why I think it doesn't work...

 

61.51(e)(1) - this is talking about logging PIC Time.  Everything until 61.51(e)(2) applies to this topic.

61.51(e)(1)(iv) - This is the part we're talking about.  First off, it says "when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command."  Were you really performing the duties of pilot in command on every flight since you made RL1?  Or were you being a good PI?  Maybe you were, I know I don't.  If I was, I'd be stepping on the PCs toes.  Let's assume you were and continue on.

 

61.41(e)(1)(iv)© - "The supervising PIC holds-"

"(1) A commercial pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate, and the aircraft rating...."

OR

"(2) An ATP certificate and aircraft rating...."

AND (I'll get the AND in a second).

 

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate.  Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate.  Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army.  I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP.  I rarely fly with IPs.  Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Getting back to the "AND" I mentioned above.  The AND specifies that ©(1) or ©(2) in addition to (D) must be met. 

 

AND

"(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number."

 

So even if you met ©(1) or ©(2) (flying with an CFI/IP or a pilot with an ATP), you would also have to meed (D).  I've NEVER had an Army pilot sign anything in my logbook. 

 

 

So...maybe every flight since RL1 was with an IP AND you were performing PC duties AND they signed and attested to the training in your logbook.  If that's the case, then I apologize.  You can in fact log it as PIC.

 

 

EDIT: It changed all of my C's with parentheses to ©.  Don't know how to fix that.


Edited by 01CelicaGTS, 24 February 2016 - 13:48.

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#31 CharyouTree

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 16:57

I don't think that logging flight time as PIC once you are RL1 really checks out.

 

One of the things that you "missed out on" getting your commercial license on the Military's dime as opposed to going to a civilian flight school is interpreting the FARs.  I remember going to multiple classes at my civilian flight school when I was getting my commercial license that were all about how to interpret and read the FARs.  These classes included case studies and were meant to keep you out of trouble. 

 

Anyway, this is why I think it doesn't work...

 

61.51(e)(1) - this is talking about logging PIC Time.  Everything until 61.51(e)(2) applies to this topic.

61.51(e)(1)(iv) - This is the part we're talking about.  First off, it says "when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command."  Were you really performing the duties of pilot in command on every flight since you made RL1?  Or were you being a good PI?  Maybe you were, I know I don't.  If I was, I'd be stepping on the PCs toes.  Let's assume you were and continue on.

 

61.41(e)(1)(iv)© - "The supervising PIC holds-"

"(1) A commercial pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate, and the aircraft rating...."

OR

"(2) An ATP certificate and aircraft rating...."

AND (I'll get the AND in a second).

 

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate.  Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate.  Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army.  I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP.  I rarely fly with IPs.  Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Getting back to the "AND" I mentioned above.  The AND specifies that ©(1) or ©(2) in addition to (D) must be met. 

 

AND

"(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number."

 

So even if you met ©(1) or ©(2) (flying with an CFI/IP or a pilot with an ATP), you would also have to meed (D).  I've NEVER had an Army pilot sign anything in my logbook. 

 

 

So...maybe every flight since RL1 was with an IP AND you were performing PC duties AND they signed and attested to the training in your logbook.  If that's the case, then I apologize.  You can in fact log it as PIC.

 

 

EDIT: It changed all of my C's with parentheses to ©.  Don't know how to fix that.

 

I'd agree with most of this.

 

I know in my unit just about every flight for the PIs, *especially* when there was an IP aboard, was a "PC training" flight.  The biggest heartache I'd have is that there's not necessarily an "approved training plan" which stops it there, for me.

 

Honestly, it's easier to just not worry about it, and only log the time that you were on the controls. If you know you manipulated the controls the whole flight, log the whole thing. If you didn't, either estimate, or split it 50/50.  I'd say split any that were "back and forth" 50/50. I know there were some flights I didn't touch the controls because I was managing (while I was the PI), so...I didn't log any PIC.

 

Again...do what feels right to you, if the regs back it up. But also know what you're talking about if you're asked.  No one can question "sole manipulator of the flight controls".



#32 napoleonpp

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 18:57

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?

#33 Lindsey

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 19:02

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?


If you don't already hold a PPL-H or higher before starting flight school, yes.

#34 napoleonpp

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 19:07

Sweet that's what I thought. I'm redoing my logbooks so wanted to ensure I was doing it all right this time. Thanks!

#35 adam32

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 19:58

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?


Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.

#36 eagle5

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 21:42

Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.


Do you guys actually fly alone, or do you just pretend the dude sitting next to you isn't there?

#37 napoleonpp

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 23:00

Do you guys actually fly alone, or do you just pretend the dude sitting next to you isn't there?


In the military? During Flight School, towards the very beginning we do our "Solo." We do it with our stick buddy, the guy your going through flight school with, in the helicopter beside you. So it's basically like your by yourself haha

#38 eagle5

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 23:21

In the military? During Flight School, towards the very beginning we do our "Solo." We do it with our stick buddy, the guy your going through flight school with, in the helicopter beside you. So it's basically like your by yourself haha


We have to be the sole occupant of the aircraft. Gives us something to look forward to, i.e. kicking the instructors fat ass out so we can see what a 22 can really do!

#39 Lindsey

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 05:49

Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.


We don't do any true solo at Rucker. "Solo" is with your stick buddy. But you're right, you can log PIC but not solo.

#40 iChris

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 14:13

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate.  Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate. 

 

Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army.  I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP.  I rarely fly with IPs.  Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Under FAR §61.51 there are only four ways that you can log pilot in command time. The fourth (iv) option is not applicable to your situation, since the requirements for an approved training program cannot be met based on most units lack of properly certified instructors.

 

That leaves three viable options, [e] 1 (i) (ii) or (iii)

 

The following may also be relevant:

We would consider you rated in the aircraft, which in the civilian version (Boeing 707) requires a type rating, by virtue of having completed the pilot proficiency check. Thus, in evaluating your military flight time, we would treat the time as PIC time under section 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - Morris 2006

 

 


§61.51   Pilot logbooks

 

[e] Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

 

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

 

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

 

[A] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

 

[B] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

 

 

§61.1   Applicability and definitions

[b] For the purpose of this part:

 

Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

 

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.

 

Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

 

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

 

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority. (note: An ATP holder can instruct under Part 61.167) 

Edited by iChris, 25 February 2016 - 14:45.

Regards,

Chris





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