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Are the days of the career pilot numbered?

aviation helicopter careers jobs pilot shortage drones

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#21 avbug

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 20:28

 

This will remove helicopter jobs. Not all of them, but most. 

 

 

No, it won't.

 

Expansion of helicopter uses and applications will not remove helicopter jobs, and will not remove most of them.  

 

Not by a long shot.  The same is true of fixed wing jobs.  



#22 terminal_velo

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 20:29

Keep telling yourself that.


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#23 takefootoff

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 22:58

[quote name="avbug" post="180990" timestamp="1465262908"]

 
No, it won't.
 
Expansion of helicopter uses and applications will not remove helicopter jobs, and will not remove most of them.  
 
Not by a long shot.  The same is true of fixed wing jobs.

Please try and tell that to the gainfully employed flight engineers from 20-30 years ago when GPS and FMC's were coming out...remember that third dude in the cockpit with a sexton and some charts?
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#24 takefootoff

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 23:26

...or th E-harmony executive before Tinder came out
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#25 avbug

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 14:10

[quote name="avbug" post="180990" timestamp="1465262908"]

 Please try and tell that to the gainfully employed flight engineers from 20-30 years ago when GPS and FMC's were coming out...remember that third dude in the cockpit with a sexton and some charts?

 

 

Do you know what a flight engineer does?  I'm a qualified flight engineer.  How about you?

 

It's "sextant," not "sexton," and that's not a FE function.  That's a navigator function.  Flight engineers manage systems such as fuel balance and transfer, environmental, electrical, etc.  That's what the flight engineer does.  

 

GPS had NOTHING to do with a reduction in the number of flight engineers, and neither did FMS or FMC.  Nothing.

 

Flight engineer numbers began decreasing when Boeing (et al) began building aircraft without FE stations.

 

Comment again when you know what you're talking about.  We can discuss it further.



#26 takefootoff

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 15:12

Yes a sextant, sorry. Auto correct put down sexton, lol...look it up.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the whole flight engineer thing bro, maybe you should take that up with Boeing. I'm actually instructing a AF reserve KC-10 flight engineer, I'll pick his brain and get back to ya.



#27 avbug

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 18:36

Yes a sextant, sorry. Auto correct put down sexton, lol...look it up.

 

I'm sorry to hear about the whole flight engineer thing bro, maybe you should take that up with Boeing. I'm actually instructing a AF reserve KC-10 flight engineer, I'll pick his brain and get back to ya.

 

 

You're sorry to hear about flight engineers?  What are you sorry to hear?  

 

Flight engineers are currently used on a number of types of aircraft, from the C-130 to the DC-6 DC-10 to the B727, etc.  They're not as plentiful as they used to be, and rather than the second seat position to move to a first officer job, nearly all are occupied by professional flight engineers.  

 

What would I take up with Boeing?

 

You be sure to pick a student's brain.  You'll be an expert by the time you're done, I'm sure.  



#28 takefootoff

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 20:42

You should take it up with Boeing for just up and deciding to remove that 3rd seat for no reason like they did...I mean unless you wanna confess to all of that new technology kicked you out of a job, ohhhh and kippity clap clap you mentioned a whopping THREE air frames that still use an FE to this day
 
I dunno if anyone else is seeing this, but just a few posts ago you were writing off this emerging autonomous technology as if it would barely affect manned commercial heli operations. But maybe it seems your experience proves otherwise?
 
So you admit that at you are/where a certified flight engineeeeeeeer...but right now it seems you are not gainfully employed as one? Then you give me a hard time about going dual rated/ATP in a separate thread, but on it seems on this you come off as an experienced heli pilot?
 
.....dude are you projecting on me?

#29 avbug

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 22:17

You should take it up with Boeing for just up and deciding to remove that 3rd seat for no reason like they did...I mean unless you wanna confess all of that new technology kicked you out of a job, oh and kippity clap clap you mention a whopping THREE air frames that still use an FE to this day

 

 

 

I have nothing to take up with boeing.  Nobody kicked me out of any job.  You sound like a ten year old.  Kippity clapp clapp?  Is it past your bed time?

 

You're what, a student pilot, maybe a low time instructor, waffling on about trying to get to the airlines?  Your experience level is zip.  You don't know squat about what you're trying to say.  I've experience as an international widebody captain.  You?  Not so much?  You're going to pick your student's brain?

 

Technology hasn't put me out of a job, and it didn't put flight engineers out of a job.  You attempted to say that navigation technology cost flight engineers their jobs, and it didn't.  Economics did that; airlines demanded airframes that did away with the FE seat, which is why aircraft like the 747 Classic moved to the 747-400, eliminated the FE seat and made other changes.  I'm not in the least concerned with "job loss," and it wasn't a technology-driven change.  It was an economic demand on the part of the clients who purchased the aircraft.  You wouldn't know about that.  I'm a qualified FE.  I don't make my living as a FE, but I make a very good living none the less, using several of my five FAA certificates.  The FE is but one.

 

 

I dunno if anyone else is seeing this, but just a few posts ago you were writing off this emerging autonomous technology as if it would barely affect manned commercial heli operations. But maybe it seems your experience proves otherwise?
 

 

 

Of course you know others are reading this.  Don't be an idiot.

 

Autonomous cockpits aren't going to have a major impact on pilot jobs.   They will expand roles and provide additional opportunities to employ rotor and fixed wing aircraft in various roles, but wont' have a major impact on hiring, or employing of pilots.  My experience doesn't illustrate anything to the contrary, but your belief that it does shows your ignorance.  You really have no idea what you're talking about, and it appears that you have no inkling about how ignorant you are.  You actually think you know what your'e saying, for which you should also be embarrassed, burt don't know enough to be embarrassed about that, either.

 

 

So you admit that at you are/where a certified flight engineeeeeeeer...but right now it seems you are not gainfully employed as one? Then you give me a hard time about going dual rated/ATP in a separate thread, but on it seems on this you come off as an experienced heli pilot?
 

 

 

Admit?  No, I told you.  I'm a certificated flight engineer (what do you think a "certified flight engineer "is?).  I'm a number of other things, too, and make a very good living as a pilot.  

 

You're not a dual-rated ATP.  You're not an ATP.   You don't meet the qualifications.  I am an ATP, as are many of the other posters here.  

 

No, I don't work as a FE.  I work as a pilot.  What's your point, bright spark?

 

 

.....dude are you projecting on me?

 

 

"Dude?"  Really?  Grow up.


Edited by avbug, 08 June 2016 - 01:03.

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#30 Guest_pokey_*

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 03:20

it took a bit longer than i expected, but i knew the 747 was gonna come up sooner or later,,,, and there i was, buzzin' along at twice the speed of sound, chasin' this one nasty mosquito that had eluded me my whole FE engineer career , but ? now I'M the captain and i'm,,,,,,,, awww maw !  i'm too sick to go to school today.


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#31 takefootoff

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 07:22

Fair enough, ya got me.



#32 Guest_pokey_*

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:51

self explanatory :  

 


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#33 Scyther

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 19:27

Young man, don’t think about be in the last, think about being the first to take advantage of these new opportunities. If you think it through and position yourself correctly, you won’t have to limit yourself (don’t limit yourself) to being a single skill set pilot. Be in a position, if desired, to buy your own aircraft and fly when and where you want, think about it.

 

 

I appreciate your giving me a different perspective.

 

At the moment i'm struggling to save enough funds to go to flight school... It's such a daunting amount for me. Don't get me wrong though, i'm thankful to even be in a position to be able to put money aside towards something that is just a dream for most. Let's just say it's teaching me how to be super patient. 

 

Dunno about ever owning my own aircraft though... Then again I thought I'd never make it to where I am today. So yes, I guess anything is possible as long as your open to having an adventure! 

 

I just hope I get a good bit of stick and rudder time before too long :)



#34 Wally

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:30

"Paperless office." When computers were becoming an everyday common-place office tool, the need for hard copy was supposed to disappear. I print more paper every day than I used in a week before computers.

GPS. I have 2 and on-board data links of all kinds. I must still carry conventional charts (which do things that would require 4k screen), the only thing I can't do by sectional is tell you withing 3 meters where I was 10 seconds ago and digitize an approximation of an ETE. "Over there" and "in a couple minutes" work just as well. And 99% of my communication is spoken word, the equipment I flew in Vietnam could do the job.

Autopilots? Infrequently deployed for whatever reason. Kind of like the internal combustion engine and modern transportation, autopilot technology will have to be ubiquitous before you'll see UAVs "in every garage".

 

There will continue to be career helicopter pilots. UAVs will develop and be used in ways that are not obvious at present and eventually enter what I see as the conventional helo market. It might happen more quickly than I think- right after the paperless office.


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Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#35 ARM_Coder

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 13:37

IMO technology has the potential to kill lots of jobs (well, some jobs were effectively killed, like charriot drivers or phone operators). But it doesn't kill that many jobs - instead, technology increases productivity.

 

What I accomplish in a single day, nowadays, is about the same I would take a week (or more) to get in the 70's. The profit I generate to my employer is much higher than what used to be decades ago.

 

Well, speaking about helicopters: I'm a computer engineer, and believe me: I'm quite sure I would never fly inside a computer-controlled helicopter, unless it had a manual override and a rated pilot behind the controls (could be myself! :)).

 

Another problem with multirotors (aka "drones") is that they are fully dependent on electronics to maintain control. If one loses power, it will not be controllable, nor will autorotate. It will fall like Newton's apple. Simply like this.

 

Cheers!



#36 Spike

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 16:55

FE jobs have obviously dwindled but airlines still operate with 2 up front……. No signs of that changing anytime soon.....

 

Shoot, the Starship Enterprise needed a flight crew to voyage around space and that’s in the future…..

 

On average, I too have to print about 15 pages before I fly.....



#37 avbug

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 02:54

With advances in RVSM airspace allowing 2,000' vertical separation to be reduced to 1,000,' traffic congestion increased.  RVSM requires autopilot use and must be individually certified for each aircraft that operates in RVSM.  Despite advances in automation, the number of jobs increased along with the traffic increase.  

 

For those of us who have flown Cat II and Cat III approaches with autoland, the technology is certainly there to program and fly the procedure on autopilot to a touchdown and stop on the runway (with autobrakes).  I've done it.    Anyone who has done it, however, understands very well just why the pilot is there.

 

Increases in automation and computer use in the operation of aircraft tend to increase the number of jobs necessary, not decrease them, in aircraft operations.  

 

I've flown ISR missions alongside Reapers and Predators and other advanced UAV traffic; the footprint for my operations were considerably smaller than that of the UAV's.  The manned assets were also more successful.   The duration of the flights were shorter; UAV's remained on station longer, but manned assets had a higher success rate, especially for capturing events and coverage that the UAV's missed.



#38 rick1128

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 19:21

Until Air Force One becomes an UAV, I don't believe that we have too much to worry about. Especially if we carry passengers. Some jobs like aerial application, it may be quite appropriate to use an UAV. Others that require a high level of situational awareness and a feel for the machine, like external load, it may be inappropriate to use an UAV.



#39 aeroscout

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 20:10

One of my fellow VertRef poster mentioned compensation and security.
I hope you aren't using my experience as an example.
I have had 3 fixed wing and 4 rotary wing jobs since my start in commercial aviation over 20 years ago.
That's not including side jobs and contracting to help make ends meet.
As for compensation fixed wing was marginal and rotary was worse.
Living the dream.

#40 rotormandan

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 23:23

Until Air Force One becomes an UAV, I don't believe that we have too much to worry about. Especially if we carry passengers. Some jobs like aerial application, it may be quite appropriate to use an UAV. Others that require a high level of situational awareness and a feel for the machine, like external load, it may be inappropriate to use an UAV.


Ag doesn't require high situational awareness or a feel for the machine? One with that mindset flying ag would become an xmas present wraped in wires. Probably witha few drift claims on top of that.

Just sayin'
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