choppereng Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Hey everybody, I'm running some numbers to get an idea of how much my pay will drop when I'm in flight school and I wanted to make sure that most people are still in the W-1 <2 years bracket when they graduate. We're starting a new apartment and I want to make sure that the new one is affordable while I'm away at school. Rucker's $1200/mo BAH doesn't go very far in NYC... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StockTrader Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Yea you will be a WO1 when you are going through. Especially being guard and blackhawks you should finish well ahead of pinning W2. The ones who possibly make W2 before they leave are typically AD 64 guys who caught some bubbles...or the occaisional hawk driver who decides to go and get mono or something crazy like that. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppereng Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Thanks StockTrader! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stearmann4 Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 HRC is currently staffing an initiative to lengthen the time from WO1 to CW2 for aviation WOs to 3 years from the current 2. Expect to see it implemented sometime in 2017. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhenry Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Would that affect everybody? or just people getting WO1 after they implement it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creep0321 Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 For example, I should pin CW2 in October 2017...any idea how this would effect me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stearmann4 Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Didn't read how it affected current WO1s. My guess is it would only apply to WO1s pinned after he approval date, so as not to alter the current manning cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 If your wife is remaining in nyc, for good reason (maybe she has a professional job that she would be detrimental for her to lose by leaving with you for 18 months...?), you should be able to apply to be a geographical bachelor and get BAH at your home rate. If she's going with, you're doing a full PCS and closing out your lease, anyway. This was a possibility in the past. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I was able to afford 800$ a month mortgage payment at home in an empty house and still live on base at Rucker where they took the whole BAH amount. With a wife and two kids to feed. And we bought cable and Internet. It's doable depending on what your rent is in NYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 HRC is currently staffing an initiative to lengthen the time from WO1 to CW2 for aviation WOs to 3 years from the current 2. Expect to see it implemented sometime in 2017. Can we as an Army stop collectively crapping on Aviation? Without getting into everything else that I think is silly: 1) It's already a year longer to be in the zone for promotion from W2-3 and W3-42) Tech warrants E-7 and above can already get W2 after only one year. We got W1 after WOCS in the 90s because it was crazy how long our WOBC was comparatively, and now they basically want to go right back to that? If they want it for everyone, I can get behind it. Targeting Aviation burns my biscuits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsey Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016  Can we as an Army stop collectively crapping on Aviation? Without getting into everything else that I think is silly: 1) It's already a year longer to be in the zone for promotion from W2-3 and W3-42) Tech warrants E-7 and above can already get W2 after only one year. We got W1 after WOCS in the 90s because it was crazy how long our WOBC was comparatively, and now they basically want to go right back to that? If they want it for everyone, I can get behind it. Targeting Aviation burns my biscuits.Exactly, and what irks me is if they are going to do it, it shouldn't just apply to Warrants. We have 1LTs graduating flight school everyday, more than the number of W2s, and that 2LT time is even more important for their career progression than WO1 time is for us. Why not delay their promotion by a year also, then? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamer Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Why not delay their promotion by a year also, then?Or 4... 4 is a good number for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stearmann4 Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Its not really "crapping on aviation", there's some reasoning behind it. Inputs from the various CABs have been collected over a period of time. You have to remember how much Army aviation has changed, even since 2001. We're not flying Hueys, Cobras, and 58s anymore. The aircraft and mission are immeasurably more complex, and require more time to be integrated into not only flying the aircraft, but understanding the systems, and how to employ them. You've also got to remember that with a more complex aviation branch, and deployments, it takes longer to progress, and become a productive PC. In a simpler era when the current promotion schedule was implemented, you graduated flight school as a WO1 with adequate time remaining to progress before you were promoted to W2. This put you on schedule to develop into a mature, subject matter expert by the time you pinned W3. Now, though a combination of expanding technology, training log jams, and limited resources to train in the units, you have folks who have been a W2 for a year or more when they in-process into their first company. By doctrine, a W2 is supposed to be a seasoned PC, ready to track and assume entry level leadership positions. When you see a W2, you don't know if he/she is fresh out of flight school, or has 1,000 hours of PC time. But as a company commander, I'm going to assign you duties per what that rank is supposed to equip you to do. And that's where bump in the road is; with current timelines and advanced equipment we're fielding, junior WOs need more time at the W2 level to develop, mature, and become experts before they hit W3. rather than lengthen the time from W2 to W3, it made more sense to build in the time at the beginning of your career. WO1 time is a freebee in Army terms, nothing is really xpected of you. Its the period where you learn the most, and form the habits you'll carry forward. Once you hit W2 there are doctrinal and exerience expectations. This is why is makes more sense to build the time in early. Don't compare the commissioned counter parts, they have different, and sometimes far more demanding expectations. But remember, we rely on them to provide sound leadership, not necessarily be the most experienced aviators. Also, the RLO development schedule provides an excellent road map from 2LT to LTC to make sure they experience all the variations of command to eventually prepare them for Battalion Command. The WO Corps is just now starting to use a similar development model and schedule. Lastly, other WO MOSs; apples to oranges, don't compare the two. MOSs besides aviation (there are a few exceptions), have already been working as NCOs, and some SNCOs) in their field for 5-8 years or more. As soon as they graduate from WOC school and their WOBC, most are placed in senior leadership positions in their units. They are immediately relied upon by the commander to be the technical experts. Flight school does not prepare us to do the same. While flight school is effectively our WOBC, that year or so can't compare with the several years of experience other WO MOSs have. We have the basics on how to safety fly a helicopter, but it's just a foundation to build on. That's why other WOs pin W2 faster. FYI, the Army has also expanded the time for promotion from 1LT to CPT across all MOSs for the same reason. Remember, the LT you treat like a nit wit today, takes that experience, and it adversely shapes what kind of a company and battalion commander he/she becomes in a few short years. And as luck would have it, they usually end up being your commander. I've had the circle come around several times in the last few years. I found myself saying "I'm glad I wasn't a jackass to him."  Hope that cleared up the confusion. Mike- 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Mike, why do you have to be the voice of reason? That actually does clear it up quite a bit. I knew all of that, but hearing it said that way is certainly helpful. I would however, still have a question on why the commissioned counterparts often never see time at their unit as 2LTs. Isn't that a similar time we'd want them worrying less about _____ and more about progression, and learning to fly? To try and head off the "nit wit" effect? Especially if they have more demanding expectations. (1LT to CPT timelines aside). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VelosiT Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 On the other side of this debate....if they make me do 3 years as a WO1, I don't have to make CW5 to retire anymore. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharyouTree Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 why would you have to make CW5 to make retirement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VelosiT Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Street to seat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyfoot Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Has there been any exploration of adding more ranks to the WO cohort? With such an incredible disparity between the competency of junior and senior WO's of each rank it would seem to be a very viable option, especially considering that the NCO Corps and RLO's have 9 and 10 ranks respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stearmann4 Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Don't consider flag ranks, WOs and RLOs have approximately similar rank structures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01CelicaGTS Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 On the other side of this debate....if they make me do 3 years as a WO1, I don't have to make CW5 to retire anymore. Hmmm...Still don't have to make CW5. You do have to make 4 though. You'll make CW2 with 2.5 TIS. CW3 at 8 or 9. And CW4 at 14 or 15. You wouldn't HAVE to make CW5 until 21 or 22 years TIS. You can retire at 20 as CW4 or be forced out around 22 or 23. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppereng Posted August 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 If your wife is remaining in nyc, for good reason (maybe she has a professional job that she would be detrimental for her to lose by leaving with you for 18 months...?), you should be able to apply to be a geographical bachelor and get BAH at your home rate. If she's going with, you're doing a full PCS and closing out your lease, anyway. This was a possibility in the past. Good luck. Woah, I didn't think that was a possibility. My wife is a lawyer at a big firm in Manhattan and it would be terrible for her career to resign and spend 18 months in small-town Alabama. How do you apply to be a geographical bachelor and get BAH at the home rate? Note: I'm putting in for the Guard, not AD or Reserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwil7280 Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 http://rucker.corviasmilitaryliving.com/contact-us Contact the Ft Rucker housing leasing office and they should have all the answers for you for geographic bachelor housing. If I remember correctly, since there are limited slots available you will need a memo explaining why you need geographic bachelor housing over the next guy. I also think you have to "re apply" every 60 or 90 days. Anyway, contact the Corvias leasing office and they should be able to help you out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppereng Posted August 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 http://rucker.corviasmilitaryliving.com/contact-us Contact the Ft Rucker housing leasing office and they should have all the answers for you for geographic bachelor housing. If I remember correctly, since there are limited slots available you will need a memo explaining why you need geographic bachelor housing over the next guy. I also think you have to "re apply" every 60 or 90 days. Anyway, contact the Corvias leasing office and they should be able to help you out. Great info, cwil7280, I appreciate it! Any idea how competitive it is? Do most people that apply and have qualifying circumstances get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwil7280 Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 I have no idea how competitive it is, but I've heard they stay pretty full. I looked into it when I first got to Rucker since my wife wasn't coming down for a few more months, but it was an ass pain and I wanted to start getting settled into a house so I didn't really pursue it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBird Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 Would the Army rank up someone faster with 4 years TIS from another branch? Or is it mostly TIG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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