Fudging, skids up vs. engine time, indentured servitude,...this one's got it all!

[r22butters]

Found this on the fun side!

 

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=60239a21-9aa4-4570-9eb5-44cf3af30809

Edited January 10, 2017 by r22butters

[Nearly Retired]

Man, that (NAME REDACTED) guy must be a real piece of work. I wonder what so quickly caused the bitterness between him and the two company honchos? Personality clash?

 

And that bit about him "losing" his logbooks for the flight time prior to getting hired by Wildcat is sure suspicious.

[500F]

Do I read that correctly. Transport Canada says "flight time" is engine on to engine off?

 

IMO, Flight time is skids up to skids down. Flight is flight, in the air. Putting engine time in a logbook overstates experience, billing a customer based on engine time is downright unethical.

[Eric Hunt]

The customer pays for engine time, the pilot logs engine time, the maintenance release gets actual in-air time. Might be .1 different from the engine time.

 

Simple.

[WolftalonID]

Do I read that correctly. Transport Canada says "flight time" is engine on to engine off?

 

IMO, Flight time is skids up to skids down. Flight is flight, in the air. Putting engine time in a logbook overstates experience, billing a customer based on engine time is downright unethical.

So who pays for the cycle log, the fuel, the oil, the pilots time to monitor the aircraft? Who is held liable for the safty of everyone around when rotors start to turn? There is a reason helicopters don't come with remote start key fobs. Its not unethical at all...its logical, safe, and liable in all aspects.

[brian74]

So who pays for the cycle log, the fuel, the oil, the pilots time to monitor the aircraft? Who is held liable for the safty of everyone around when rotors start to turn? There is a reason helicopters don't come with remote start key fobs. Its not unethical at all...its logical, safe, and liable in all aspects.

[brian74]

^^^Bingo. A wise old pilot once asked me, who do you think is solely responsible for that aircraft once that rotor is turning and it becomes a lethal machine?

[iChris]

Do I read that correctly. Transport Canada says "flight time" is engine on to engine off?

 

• Hauber's version was that he requested a copy of Ellis's flight and duty logs. When he received them, it was apparent that they had been incorrectly filled out, such that they reflected Ellis's air time (ie, the time from the skids leaving the ground to when they touch the ground at the end of a flight), not his flight time (ie, engine on to engine off). Hauber asked that this be corrected.

 

• Ellis's version of events was that Hauber had asked him to record his flight time rather than his air time on the B212 in order to meet the OMNR requirements more quickly. Ellis was of the view that doing so was a violation of Transport Canada's rules and regulations. Ellis also alleged that Hauber asked him to modify his personal log to increase the number of hours that he had flown.

 

The Article doesn’t exactly match the regulation….

 

air time - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

flight time - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

Canadian Aviation Regulations Subpart 1 — Interpretation 101.01 (1)

Edited January 23, 2017 by iChris

[500F]

Lets pass on the logbook discussion for a minute....

 

When you buy a bus or a train thicket. you are paying to go from A to B. All of the factors that go into the cost of that bus ride are factored into the cost of the ticket. If it is a utility job, and the customer is paying, X per hour for cherry drying, putting poles in holes, crop spaying, Xmas tree hauling, power line work, etc, the customer should be able to get a rate, X per/hour and expect that per hour means per hour of that service being performed, Not an extra .5 to 1.0 per day of time where you were on the ground. When laborers charge you per hour, they don't charge you for their commute do they?

 

Yes, you have to pay the pilot, oil (do you really burn that much oil?) and fuel.

The way pilots get paid varies quite a bit, but as far as the aircraft goes you are only paying a very small portion of its operating cost because you are not paying for component times and your fuel burn at ground idle is only about 30-35% of fuel burn in flight. So a B3 Astar for example, you will burn about 20gph at ide which equates to about $100 per hour and that is all it is costing you. And charge your customer what $2,000 per hour for that time? Nay, you build the costs there into your hourly cost. It is unethical to bill a customer for time in which he is not receiving the service he is paying for unless he specifically agrees to it, such as a one time relocation fee.

 

If you are in the utility world, I have a feeling most of your customers would freak out if they found out you were billing them for flight time when you are sitting on the ground during startup, shutdown, fueling, peeing, grabbing a snack, texting, etc. They would tell you the contract says, per flight hour (like they usually do) and have you look up the word flight in a dictionary.

 

Additionally, unless the contract explains your meaning of "flight Hour" you should be using the dictionary definition of flight, and you are in breach of contract.

[Wally]

^^^Bingo. A wise old pilot once asked me, who do you think is solely responsible for that aircraft once that rotor is turning and it becomes a lethal machine?

 

I guess I should log every hour I spend maintaining my health so I can qualify for that next airman's medical- 420,768 HOURS! Less, I guess, about 15 minutes abusing myself...

 

"flight time" as "time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1."

 

Rotors, propellers, engines, are not mentioned. The aircraft must MOVE, whole and entire, not just part of it.

[r22butters]

My favorite experience regarding the logging of flight time was after canceling one of those "time-building" flights in the 44 after only about ten minutes due to a maintenance concern. The chief pilot asked me, "Its only a .2 are you going to log it?" "Probably not, why?" I said.

 

,..."If you were going to log it, then I would have to charge you for it.", he replied.

[helonorth]

^^^Bingo. A wise old pilot once asked me, who do you think is solely responsible for that aircraft once that rotor is turning and it becomes a lethal machine?

 

Did you really need a wise old pilot to tell you this?

[iChris]

Its not unethical at all...its logical, safe, and liable in all aspects.

 

We’ve had a number of discussions on this forum over the topic of “flight time.” Recall the discussions on how R22 students were being charged by their flight schools and how they were personally logging flight time?

 

Most R22 students were billed off the aircraft’s Hobbs meter, which for all practical purposes on older R22s, was an engine-on to engine-off meter. Therefore, most students felt it ethical to log such time as “flight time.” Since they were paying for it, they logged it, logical in terms of their pocketbook; however, not quite within the §1.1 definition. Ethical appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

 

It is the operator’s responsibility to maintain accurate time-in-service records for the airframe, engine, and life-limited components. R22s are equipped with either an oil- pressure-activated hourmeter which records engine run time or a collective-activated hourmeter which records flight (collective up) time. Either method may be used to track time in service, however numerical values for service lives depend on the tracking method used.

 

REF: R22 Maintenance Manual, Chapter 3; Time-In-Service Records}

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by iChris

[r22butters]

Most R22 students were billed off the aircrafts Hobbs meter, which for all practical purposes on older R22s, was an engine-on to engine-off meter. Therefore, most students felt it ethical to log such time as flight time. Since they were paying for it, they logged it, logical in terms of their pocketbook; however, not quite within the §1.1 definition. Ethical appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

In the begining (at least at my old school) it was the instructor not the student filling out his logbook using that good old R22 hobbs. Most students never thought about the actual definition of "flight time" (if they ever even looked it up) logging off the hobbs was not an ethical decision, just how they were taught. "What's the hobbs meter there for?",..."Well for logging flight time of course!"

 

I myself never even thought of logging any other way until I came here and read one of those debates.

 

Now I suppose I could go back and subtract a .1 from all my R22 flights (I think it would be around 50hrs or so) but I'm just not that ethical!

[iChris]

If you are in the utility world, I have a feeling most of your customers would freak out if they found out you were billing them for flight time when you are sitting on the ground during startup, shutdown, fueling, peeing, grabbing a snack, texting, etc. They would tell you the contract says, per flight hour (like they usually do) and have you look up the word flight in a dictionary.

 

That’s correct, most all government contracts for helicopter services include a clause similar to the one below.

 

However, most companies still install a second meter or "switch-over-switch" in order to switch over to a so-called customer metering, that is engine run time, for their other customers. That's part of our Industry too.

 

U.S. Forest Service Exclusive Use Helicopter Services National Office

 

SECTION C

DESCRIPTION/SPECIFICATIONS/EXHIBITS

C-4 HELICOPTER REQUIREMENTS

(a) General

 

(9) One flight hour meter (Hobbs) installed in a location observable from the cockpit.

 

The meter shall be wired in series with a switch on the collective control, and a switch activated by engine or transmission oil pressure.

 

Or

 

For helicopters with a landing gear incorporating an extendable strut, the hour meter may be activated by a switch mounted in such a manner as to only operate when the strut is fully extended.

 

The hour meter shall record actual flight time in hours and tenths of an hour only.

Edited January 25, 2017 by iChris

[500F]

 

 

However, most companies still install a second meter or "switch-over-switch" in order to switch over to a so-called customer metering, that is engine run time, for their other customers. That's part of our Industry too.

 

 

If that is what the government wants.... The problem is some companies just assume you can charge other customers that way with a contract that just says $XXXX per flight hour, and that is not the case. I've seen several companies kicked off power line projects for billing utilities with the engine hobbs.