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Logging PIC Time - Employers Rule?


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#1 Whiteshadow

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 20:46

When does your employer allow you to log PIC time?

 

I am not asking for your personal opinion on what you THINK you should be allowed to log.  I want to know if your employer monitors what you are logging and if so, what do they allow you to log as PIC time?

 

Is it:

 

-  Blades are turning

 

-  Whatever the hobbs say

 

-  Some other method

 

Thanks for any participation


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#2 Eric Hunt

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 20:57

In my 45 years of helicopters, it was always:

Engine start to engine stop: the customer is paying, the captain is logging.

Skids off to skids on: the maintenance release gets these hours.

 

If the Rules say that the PIC is responsible for anything that happens while the rotors are turning, then he can log it, unless it is just an engine run. If it is a compass swing, he logs 50% of the engine time.



#3 adam32

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 21:18

Pass the popcorn and the sweat tea!
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Make your rifle, your targets worst nightmare!

 

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#4 Fred0311

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 21:30

They record my time for 135 and billing purposes as skids up to skids down. They don't tell me how to put it in my logbook but I certainly wouldn't want my logbook to differ from my 135 records...

Edited by Fred0311, 21 February 2017 - 21:48.

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#5 Whiteshadow

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 21:46

Pass the popcorn and the sweat tea!

 

 

 

"Sweat" tea..............GROSS!  I think you meant sweet tea, haha


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#6 helonorth

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 21:57

In my 45 years of helicopters, it was always:

Engine start to engine stop: the customer is paying, the captain is logging.

Skids off to skids on: the maintenance release gets these hours.

 

If the Rules say that the PIC is responsible for anything that happens while the rotors are turning, then he can log it, unless it is just an engine run. If it is a compass swing, he logs 50% of the engine time.

 

You're doing it wrong. But only for 45 years.


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#7 Eric Hunt

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Posted 21 February 2017 - 22:22

 

 

I am not asking for your personal opinion on what you THINK you should be allowed to log.  I want to know if your employer monitors what you are logging and if so, what do they allow you to log as PIC time?

 

In your OPINION, helonorth.

 

This is what my employers (military, state government, civil, and private) have done. And this is in Oz, not in Kansas, Toto.



#8 avbug

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 00:56

I've  never had an employer that got involved in what I log.  It's my logbook, not theirs.

 

The logbook is kept in accordance with the regulation.


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#9 Eric Hunt

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:39

 

 

I've  never had an employer that got involved in what I log.

 

Avbug, your employer never inspected your logbook to ensure you were not logging phantom hours? And your next employer never checked with the previous employer that your books weren't a figment of your vast imagination, logging hours spent on Microsoft Flight Sim, landing Learjets on the Enterprise?

 

As Chief Pilot I would check all the pilots' logbooks each month and stamp them as correct. Same in the military, same in the police.



#10 Wally

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 08:30

Avbug, your employer never inspected your logbook to ensure you were not logging phantom hours? And your next employer never checked with the previous employer that your books weren't a figment of your vast imagination, logging hours spent on Microsoft Flight Sim, landing Learjets on the Enterprise?
 
As Chief Pilot I would check all the pilots' logbooks each month and stamp them as correct. Same in the military, same in the police.


Statement of company flight (and duty time, some employers) regularly or on reqest. I use an annual statement to replace previous monthly statements.

Never, ever had an employer ask for my log book after the initial interview.
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Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#11 Fred0311

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 08:33

I've had four jobs and all those interviews from the road trip I did and the only one to even mention a logbook was when I went to tuna boats. And they only wanted a cell phone picture of my last page.

#12 helonorth

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 09:06

 

Avbug, your employer never inspected your logbook to ensure you were not logging phantom hours? And your next employer never checked with the previous employer that your books weren't a figment of your vast imagination, logging hours spent on Microsoft Flight Sim, landing Learjets on the Enterprise?

 

As Chief Pilot I would check all the pilots' logbooks each month and stamp them as correct. Same in the military, same in the police.

 

Since the CASA defines flight time as "the duration of flight", I would say yes, you have been doing it wrong. Being responsible for something is not the same as actually performing the task as defined. In this case flying.

 

I'd like to see your little stamp you had made up, too. lol. If you came near me with that thing, you'd need to go to the emergency room to have it removed from a certain bodily orifice.



#13 helonorth

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 09:25

When does your employer allow you to log PIC time?

 

I am not asking for your personal opinion on what you THINK you should be allowed to log.  I want to know if your employer monitors what you are logging and if so, what do they allow you to log as PIC time?

 

Is it:

 

-  Blades are turning

 

-  Whatever the hobbs say

 

-  Some other method

 

Thanks for any participation

I have worked for several operators in the last 10 years. If operating under part 135, the employer must keep a record of your flight and duty time. The flight time is the time billed (take off to landing) for the day. This is the time that is sent to your next employer (if operating under 135) as they must get copies of all your 135 records for (I believe) 10 years. If an employer asks to see your logbook and these times differ, they may want to know why. I have never had an employer ask to see my logbook, though. Ever. What's in your personal logbook is basically irrelevant. Nobody looks at your logbook. 



#14 r22butters

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 12:31

...What's in your personal logbook is basically irrelevant. Nobody looks at your logbook.

If that were true I wouldn't have had to take out that picture of me washing the 22 naked!

On my first interview not only did he look at my logbook, but he looked up at me and asked, "Where's your 40 hours?"(the job required 40 hours in the 44). I replied, "You have to add in those first couple flights on the last page!" (the page wasn't full yet).

At Helislave they had a pretty sophisticated computer program that recorded EVERYTHING you did in the 44. From weight to route, to if you were above or below the assigned altitude,...and of course flight time!

From how the guy who was training me described how many flights he flew the previous day it was pretty obvious they were logging blade time, not skids up!
The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#15 helonorth

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 15:11

If that were true I wouldn't have had to take out that picture of me washing the 22 naked!

On my first interview not only did he look at my logbook, but he looked up at me and asked, "Where's your 40 hours?"(the job required 40 hours in the 44). I replied, "You have to add in those first couple flights on the last page!" (the page wasn't full yet).

At Helislave they had a pretty sophisticated computer program that recorded EVERYTHING you did in the 44. From weight to route, to if you were above or below the assigned altitude,...and of course flight time!

From how the guy who was training me described how many flights he flew the previous day it was pretty obvious they were logging blade time, not skids up!

 

That's somewhat contradictory since you say the computer logged flight time and then you say the pilot logged engine running time. But how would you know what the guy put in his logbook?

 

Was this a part 91 operation? No limits on flight or duty time. If they did operate under 135, the pilots would be timing out much, much earlier if logging blade turning time as flight time considering all the take offs and landings they do. The 2-3 minutes to load and unload adds up when you do a lot of trips a day. When I was in the GOM, for every 3 hours in the seat, I was billing (flying) 2 hours. That was a 6-8 hour a day job with a lot of take offs and landings. You could be on a job that didn't fly much or flew long legs and the time would be about the same.

 

Nobody really has any control over what goes in your logbook. Your employer cannot "allow" or monitor what goes in your logbook. Why the hell would your current employer care what you put in your logbook? They might look at your book before, but not after. Log what the reg says for your future employer.



#16 r22butters

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 15:22

That's somewhat contradictory since you say the computer logged flight time and then you say the pilot logged engine running time. But how would you know what the guy put in his logbook?
 


Sorry I meant blade time, but the computer broke everything down flight by flight, so you could just add up your air time and put that in your book. However when he said how many flights he did, I remarked that its sucks that it doesn't really add up to much, then he said no, we log it all. Think it was something like nine hours he said he was logging,...that's how I knew.
The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#17 Azhigher

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 15:34

Skids up to skids down per my employer. I log the same so my records match. After the first 2000 hours who caaaaaaaaaaares? 


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#18 Pohi

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 15:47

My helicopter records flight time from the first pull of the collective to engine shut down.

My employer bills flight time from before pickup to after landing. Per the approved and mandatory checklist, it adds maybe a minute on each end of the actual skids up/down time. Or, for that matter... sometimes longer based on clearance.

I log my 3 takeoffs and landings within 90 days and don't sweat the rest. If I ever leave and look for a job, I'll print out my 135 records and go from there.

#19 helonorth

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 17:49

Skids up to skids down per my employer. I log the same so my records match. After the first 2000 hours who caaaaaaaaaaares? 

 

You're right, nobody cares. That's why I can't see why pilots would even bother challenging the reg or its interpretation. Experience in type and type of experience, is  all that really matters.


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#20 avbug

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Posted 22 February 2017 - 22:44

 

Avbug, your employer never inspected your logbook to ensure you were not logging phantom hours? And your next employer never checked with the previous employer that your books weren't a figment of your vast imagination, logging hours spent on Microsoft Flight Sim, landing Learjets on the Enterprise?

 

As Chief Pilot I would check all the pilots' logbooks each month and stamp them as correct. Same in the military, same in the police.

 

 

My logbooks have been heavily vetted, in some cases over the course of several hours by government, 135, 121, corporate, fractional, etc.  Yes, a number of employers have looked over my records, and I've often been subject to comprehensive background checks, PRIA paperwork, clearances, etc...it all gets looked over.  I said nothing different.

 

I did state that I've never had an employer tell me how to log time, nor would I entertain such counsel.  It's not their logbook.  

 

My logbooks are kept in accordance with the regulation.  

 

Engine start to engine shut down is not found in the regulation, nor is any connection with what the employer charges.

 

If your employer tacks on an hour to all flights as a matter of billing policy, does that mean you get to log an extra hour of flight time?  Think about it.

 

As for putting a stamp in an employees logbook, that wouldn't fly with me.  It's not your logbook.  Keep your boogerhook and toys clear.  

 

When I originally got my ATP written authorization, it was at a time when the FAA examined the logbooks and verified the time.  Back then, having the authorization to take the written had some meaning, because it represented a ratification by the FAA that the logbook had been examined and the time as presented, accepted.  That went away, but even the FAA in their scrutiny (they called former employers, verified aircraft registration, employment, etc) never put a mark in my logbook.  I did get an authorization from them, but not in my log.  

 

I present my logbooks during carding with the government when getting a card to fly fire.  I present them in interviews, and the insurance companies care about my experience, training, and history.  My training and pilot records are ordered each time I work with a 135 operator.  Every job application I've filled out wanted a work history, and former employers get calls.  It's not a particularly large industry; people know people, and it's not so easy to falsify without being discovered; the potential to get away with it shrinks exponentially the longer one is in the business, and after several decades, I very much doubt I'd get away with much.  To date, no one has ever found fault with my logbooks.  I doubt anyone ever will.

 

I have found no need to pad the logbooks, and don't log beyond what's prescribed in the regulation.  I hear conversations all the time revolving around what people think they should log, or what their employer suggests, or what they do based on their pay, yada, yada, yada.  The matter of what goes in the logbook is spelled out in the regulation, and for pilots in the US, clarified with FAA Chief and Regional Legal Counsel letters of interpretation.  We've covered that here before.


Edited by avbug, 22 February 2017 - 22:54.





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