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Logging PIC Time - Employers Rule?


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#41 Fred0311

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:12

Oh I got another. We all know dogs are better than cats. But is it acceptable as a single male helicopter pilot to have a cat instead of a dog because they're more independent? I'm away too much to be able to take care of a dog.

Edited by Fred0311, 14 March 2017 - 06:12.


#42 METT-TC

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:20

 

So METT-TC, don't bust my balls about wheeled helicopters being able to log Pilot Flight Time on the ground.  We know that; we get that.  It's just that it's irrelevant.

 

Takes head, bounces against wall. Your lack of experience in flying turbine aircraft is being restated. AH-64, UH-60/S-70, CH-47, S-76, S-92 pilots etc (thousands of pilots and hundreds of movements per day) have the ability to log a 0.2 to 0.3 in their FAA logbook anywhere from 50 to 100% of the time on the FIRST flight of the day because the manufacturer wants to ensure engine degradation against a known parameter has not occurred. This generally entails a movement into the wind and / or movement away from other aircraft / crews as you are pulling in quite a bit of collective for this. U.S. military aviators log differently than FAA, but can maintain an FAA logbook for when they get out. EASA logs differently than both (not going there as it would just make you all mad).

 

But your fail has been addressed--because you were out of your lane and had no idea.

 

And Avbug is still pretty. And I am not.



#43 Azhigher

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 11:43

Is this what happens to retired helicopter pilots? They come on VR to argue semantics with each other? Yeesh

 

 

 

Oh I got another. We all know dogs are better than cats. But is it acceptable as a single male helicopter pilot to have a cat instead of a dog because they're more independent? I'm away too much to be able to take care of a dog.

 

I think that's perfectly reasonable. The dog can be your reward for retirement, or taking an EMS job. (Which isn't too different)


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#44 r22butters

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 11:44

Damn, its almost as if the bug split in two and is arguing with himself!

As for a single dude owning a cat that always seems kind of strange? I remember a guy once who flew ENG who took his dog up with him,...that could be cool?

,...and Bell over Eurocopter, because the 222 is my all time favorite helicopter!

I also prefer redheads! :)
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#45 Fred0311

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 13:10

Hey butters stay away from my redheads!

#46 Nearly Retired

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 13:57

Good God. Another Avbug. Intent on proving his dick is bigger than everyone else's.

Don't we have enough pedants around here?

Okay, METT, you "win" if that's what you need.

And you obviously do.

#47 Wally

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 12:02

It's simple: log what you believe you flew, period. Do it consistently and as you fly it. Do not go back and apply rules of thumb, adjust or any of that BS. If your records are reviewed for consistency, you are starting from the strongest position with this technique: those reviewing your records either smell a rat and are looking for corpses or they want to see confirmation. If your records don't vary by considerable, inexplicable amounts, you are gonna be rock and roll. Employers may charge, and log differently than the pilot without fraud involved.

 

That doesn't mean you will be given any bump, If your records seem to be a couple tenths over consistently and you are close to the minimums, while Competitor A's records are jam on and exceed the minimum, all things being equal, you're not getting the job.


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#48 Northoftheborder

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:16

The bigger issue here isn't who is right or wrong; it's the fact the confusion exists...mainly due to the regulator and they refuse to do anything about it.

The same argument has been raging for years in Canada. Our definitions are virtually the same and just as is the case in the US, it appears that the law is not being enforced consistently.

In 2005 Transport Canada released a general aviation policy advising stakeholders that some TC inspectors had been erroneously interpreting flight time as equalling air time for skid equipped helicopters. The policy letter which can be seen in the first post of the forum went on to state that stakeholders and inspectors should use the ICAO definition of flight time (rotors turning to rotors stopped) until the CARs were amended.The CARs were never amended and TC cancelled the letter in 2011 with no further clarification to stakeholders.

Today the regulator has provided numerous conflicting interpretations, many of which have been posted on the forum. The most recent from the Director General and TC Heafndquarters now claims flight time equals air time. His latest response can be seen on page 52.

As many of you have pointed out however, the regulators interpretation means nothing if it doesn't hold up in court. Coincidentally a recent Supreme Court of British Columbia decision seems to directly contradict TCs latest position. The link to this court decision is found on Page 55.

#49 r22butters

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:52

...the ICAO definition of flight time (rotors turning to rotors stopped)

Your's is a simple fix. Change "flight time" to "PIC time", then there would be no confusion that it does not equal "air time"!

Using the words "flight" and "air" to describe two seprate things?,...only a bureaucrat could be that bone headed!

I like "air time",...we should use that!
The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#50 Nearly Retired

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 17:06

It's the inconsistency that amuses me.  The U.S. military does it differently than the FAA which apparently does it differently than EASA...and on and on.  But what's really funny are those helicopter pilots who staunchly maintain that YOU'RE NOT FLYING UNTIL THERE'S AIR UNDER YOUR LANDING GEAR, DAMMIT!  And that's just not true for all pilots and, (let's give a nod to METT-TC) not even all helicopter pilots, hundreds of thousands of whom might log a whole .2 or maybe a .3(!) on...well...the, um, first flight of the day prior to taking off.



#51 Northoftheborder

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 18:39

It strikes me that no natter where you operate it would be a simple fix. First the regulator needs to come to a consensus within their own organization . According to both of these forums both the FAA and TC are are interpreting definitions in a variety of ways. In Canada we refer to it as "regional disparity" , but the fact is that it is no longer regional; even within regions, from one inspector to the next,, the regulations are being enforced/applied differently. This is well documented in Canada and by the sounds of the posts on here, it appears that how you log depends on which company you work for.

#52 avbug

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 21:00

It strikes me that no natter where you operate it would be a simple fix. First the regulator needs to come to a consensus within their own organization . According to both of these forums both the FAA and TC are are interpreting definitions in a variety of ways. In Canada we refer to it as "regional disparity" , but the fact is that it is no longer regional; even within regions, from one inspector to the next,, the regulations are being enforced/applied differently. This is well documented in Canada and by the sounds of the posts on here, it appears that how you log depends on which company you work for.

 

 

The issue of logging is a legal one.  The requirement to log time to show recency of experience or to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating is established by the regulation, as are the specifics of logging time.  

 

A company has no say in the logging of time.  That matter is established by the FAA, and is clear.  Attempts by posters here to muddy the water or to impose their own ideas are pointless and irrelevant, and do nothing to alter the regulation of it's meaning.  That meaning has been clearly spelled out.



#53 adam32

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 22:21

Just leave the ground handling wheels on your skid equipped helicopter and viola! A wheeled helicopter that will be "moving under it's own power" on startup so log time from the ignitor to rotor brake!
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#54 r22butters

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 22:34

Just for shits and giggles lets entertain some math for all you R22 pilots who log off the hobbs.

Now I doubt anyone does each rating at its minimums so the difference between logging from the hobbs vs. a timer probably wouldn't put anyone below minimums for a checkride, however,...

To become a 200 hour pilot and thus employable lets guess;

50 hours xc with an average flight of 1.7 = 29 flights
150 hours local training averaging 1.2 = 125 flights
That's 154 flights to become a 200 hour R22 CFII

Subtract a 0.1 from each flight and that's 15.4 hours

15.4 hours at $300/hr = an additional $4,620 to get to 200 hours.

Now how about that R22 ATP candidate?

500 hours xc averaging 1.7 = 294 flights
700 hours local training averaging 1.2 = 583 flights
So a 1200 hour ATP wannabee has flown 877 flights

Take off a 0.1 from each flight and that's 87.1 hours

Say an average CFI gets 20 hours a month, that's now 4.4 more months he must work as a CFI to get to that ATP 1200 and his checkride.

Now its late and I'm not the best at math (plus I didn't check the FAR's for exact minimums) but these numbers don't seem like the end of the World to me?

,...unless maybe you're sleeping in your car and living off peanutbutter and Ramen! :D
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The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#55 Northoftheborder

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:02

The issue of logging is a legal one.  The requirement to log time to show recency of experience or to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating is established by the regulation, as are the specifics of logging time.  
 
A company has no say in the logging of time.  That matter is established by the FAA, and is clear.  Attempts by posters here to muddy the water or to impose their own ideas are pointless and irrelevant, and do nothing to alter the regulation of it's meaning.  That meaning has been clearly spelled out.


The meaning has been recently spelled out by the regulator in Canada as well, unfortunately the courts have also recently contradicted the regulators interpretation. http://www.canlii.or...WNlc-KAnQAAAAAB

http://www.internati...dismissal-case#

With all due respect, the regulator themselves have muddied the water by spelling out several different meanings over the years lol. Like issuing a policy letter that advised stakeholders to log as per ICAO definition. This policy letter was in effect for 6 years until it was suddenly cancelled in 2011 with no further clarification or explanation. They also refuse to enforce their interpretation when challenged.

#56 Northoftheborder

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 08:25

Just out of curiousity: in the US is it industry standard for Flight Training Units to provide students with the minimum licensing requirements in "Air Tine"?
This is not an attempt to argue, but a genuine question.
In Canada that almost never happens. For instance a pilot requires 100 hours flight time for CPL, but the majority of schools don't give students 100 hrs "air time" or time in the air. TC is fully aware of this.

Don't take my word for it. Have a look at this letter published in "Helicopters Magazine" from 2011.
http://www.mydigital...ssue_id":59508}

Nothing has changed with regards to this standard practice despite the recent interpretations from Headquarters and the Director General that state flight time is the same as air time for skid equipped helicopters.

#57 pokey

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:32

does it really matter if you just hired a guy with exactly ONE thousand hours, but the way he logged his time?,, he had only 950?  i'm sure the insurance company will try to weasel out of paying if they catch wind once he wrecks. Will the FAA really care? maybe. like butters said , it all boils down to money. 

 

When i 1st started training in fixed wings, the hobbs (that went in my logbook) was hooked up to the oil pressure switch on the engine. I can't imagine how many of us the went thru that school were a few tenths short.   

 

My personal helicopter? i have 2 hobbs (like everyone else),, what do i log?,,,,,,,,,,,i don't !   :P  and i don't expect to get caught and tossed in the pokey for not logging time.

 

what is defined? has been beat to death over and over, go by the "rules" if you want to be a "professional" (and don't get caught if ya don't)

 

 

oh and? happy st paddy's day:

 

Frenchman, German, & Irishman, in pub drinking beer, fly lands in all 3 beers at same time. Frenchman pushes his aside in disgust. German removes fly & continues drinking. Irishman picks out fly and yells at it "YOU SPIT BACK EVERY LAST DROP !  YOU BASTARD! ! ! "


Edited by pokey, 17 March 2017 - 09:35.


#58 Jaybee

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:40

Just out of curiousity: in the US is it industry standard for Flight Training Units to provide students with the minimum licensing requirements in "Air Tine"?
This is not an attempt to argue, but a genuine question.
In Canada that almost never happens. For instance a pilot requires 100 hours flight time for CPL, but the majority of schools don't give students 100 hrs "air time" or time in the air. TC is fully aware of this.

Don't take my word for it. Have a look at this letter published in "Helicopters Magazine" from 2011.
http://www.mydigital...ssue_id":59508}

Nothing has changed with regards to this standard practice despite the recent interpretations from Headquarters and the Director General that state flight time is the same as air time for skid equipped helicopters.

 

I can almost guarantee everyone in the US, including people here arguing against, put the "customer's hobbs" in their logbook while training. (in most cases not in a nefarious way but they didn't know and their instructor maybe didn't either - blind leading the naked and all that)

 

As pointed out by Butters though, unless they actually went for their checkride at the absolute minimums it doesn't really matter.

 

Also note, how many DPEs thereby signed and thereby endorsed an 8710 with "customer hobbs" which was then routed to Oklahoma and endorsed by the FAA themselves.

 

Burn the whole institution down they are all in the wrong !!! hahhaaha


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#59 Jaybee

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:43

In fact, it turns out that Ms. McPherson is no longer even with the FAA.  She's in private practice at a big Washington D.C. law firm.  One of her new clients was trying to start an Uber-like service using (ahem) private pilots to fly people around for money.  It was to be called "Airpooler, Inc."  (Carpool...airpool...clever, eh?)  Becky petitioned Mark Bury, the FAA's current Assistant Chief Counsel in their behalf.  Bury cut her off at the knees, OF COURSE, stating that such a service would be commercial in nature for both the pilots and the aircraft, effectively putting the kibosh on Airpooler, Inc.  

 

It is interesting and more than a little ironic that Ms. McPherson would take up the cause of a start-up company that was attempting to do something that is CLEARLY against the FAR's.  I mean, you'd think that certainly she would have a handle on what's legal and what's not!  And any moron can see that an Uber-for-the-air service would be a commercial operation, amiright?  But that's the thing about FAR's: they're arguable; they're open to interpretation.  Did Becky really think she could get away with that gambit?  

 

 

Even funnier is the whole argument she made in favor the air pooling thing was in direct contradiction to a Letter of Interpretation that she herself had written !!!


"In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks." — Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900. 

 

"The foot rests have a profound impact on the outcome of today's flight ending safely" - My flight instructor.


#60 r22butters

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:53



Don't tread on,...my interpretation!
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The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D




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