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Logging PIC Time - Employers Rule?


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#101 Eric Hunt

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 17:04

Butters, you sure you have the skill to sit in a 1-skid hover for a full minute???



#102 r22butters

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 18:04

Butters, you sure you have the skill to sit in a 1-skid hover for a full minute???

 
Sure, I just hit "pause" on the controller!
:rolleyes:
 
 
I need a drink<_<


Edited by r22butters, 24 March 2017 - 18:35.

The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#103 adam32

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 18:22

What about when you start up while sitting on ice and the helicopter starts spinning around until the tail rotor has enough authority to stop it? It's moving under its own power, right?
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#104 helonorth

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 19:47

What about when you start up while sitting on ice and the helicopter starts spinning around until the tail rotor has enough authority to stop it? It's moving under its own power, right?

 

Log it right up to the crash.



#105 Northoftheborder

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:50

Your format is a bit confusing, but if "a" through "i" are answer choices, I'd pick "a" if I lived in Canada, because our logbooks down here don't look like these.


For this one I'd pick "b".

To be clear the above entries are not from any official logbook. Just notes made by the pilot throughout the flight of what occurred. Whether you are in Canada or the US, These take-off and Landings could be written down in a notepad or,tracked electronically or in a variety of ways. .

So it appears you feel the US definition for flight time is consistent with the ICAO definition. Isn't that contrary to the FAA official interpretation? If so, in Q1 you have misrepresented your flight time by more than 100%, haven't you?

I agree with you on the "time in service", 100% though. Anyone disagree?

#106 Northoftheborder

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:11

The aircraft has moved under its own power for the purpose of flight. The minute may be logged in accordance with the regulation.



Should time in service also be logged?

§ 1.1 Time in service means:

with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.

#107 r22butters

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 12:17


So it appears you feel the US definition for flight time is consistent with the ICAO definition. Isn't that contrary to the FAA official interpretation? If so, in Q1 you have misrepresented your flight time by more than 100%, haven't you?

I agree with you on the "time in service", 100% though. Anyone disagree?

 

I believe that our responsibilities as Pilot in Command begin as soon as we start the engine and don't end until the blades come to a full stop after shutdown (if anyone disagrees I suggest they ask the guy who got out of his 22 after shutdown, but before the blades stopped turning, to greet his little  daughter who was running towards him.  He instinctively picked her up, placing her right in the blade path, chopping off her head!).  They tell that story at the Robinson Safety Course,...heard it like five times now!,...its really f*cked up! 

 

However, as The Bug has pointed out, my beliefs are irrelevant, and as Wally pointed out, there's nothing in there about logging "responsibility".

 

I have not read the FAA "official interpretation", but the internet consensus seems to be that our definition of "flight time" reflects a skids up to skids down scenario, and (if I recall correctly?) the ICAO definition was that of something like "rotors turning to rotors stop", so (according to the internet), its actually my 22 time which would be considered as "misrepresented",...I think?

 

Anyway, I don't really care who is correct, as I've said, I log off the hobbs, simply because I'm lazy!

 

 

,...make it a double<_<


The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#108 avbug

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 12:25

Should time in service also be logged?
§ 1.1 Time in service means:
with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.


That depends upon the aircraft, appliance, component, or powerplant, as well as the regulation under which that item is operating.

With respect to aircraft time in service, no; the aircraft has not left the surface any more that a high speed taxi of an airplane with the nosewheel or tailwheel in the air.

With respect to various components, time in service is specific to time above certain power settings, start cycles, etc. some components, such as auxilliary power units, have entirely separate maintenance tracking for time in service that has nothing to do with the aircraft leaving the surface.

#109 iChris

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 16:45

I believe that our responsibilities as Pilot in Command begin as soon as we start the engine and don't end until the blades come to a full stop after shutdown

 

Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not.

 

§91.7   Civil aircraft airworthiness.

 

( a ) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. 

 

( b ) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is "responsible" for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight…


Edited by iChris, 25 March 2017 - 16:49.

Regards,

Chris

#110 r22butters

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 18:14

 

Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not.

 

 

 

Besides you skipping over my quote of what Wally said about there being nothing in the definition of "flight time" regarding the logging of "responsibilities" (which was a good point Wally, I'd never thought about that before!)...

 

There comes a point when logic, reason, and what used to be called common sense are thrown out the window and replaced with utter ridiculousness!  I think I'll draw that line at, I'm not sitting in the pilot seat, the engine isn't running, and/or the blades are no longer spinning!

 

,...and besides, the hobbs isn't turning while I'm pre-flighting!

 

 

Well I no longer need that drink, this topic has become mind numbing enough<_<


Edited by r22butters, 25 March 2017 - 18:21.

The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fourteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#111 adam32

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 19:10

 
Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not.
 


I had an "old timer" tell me to do just that...log time while doing pre-flights...

Make your rifle, your targets worst nightmare!

 

www.diablocustomrifles.com


#112 avbug

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 20:57

Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not.
 
§91.7   Civil aircraft airworthiness.
 
( a ) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. 
 
( b ) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is "responsible" for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight…


The PIC is responsible for determining if the aircraft is airworthy for flight, but actual personal responsibility for the aircraft 24/7 rests with the owner/operator. Perhaps if personal responsibility is the new orange is the new black is the new standard for logging time, the owner operator can log it around the clock. What a concept.

Or: what, a concept?

#113 Northoftheborder

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 06:01

Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"?

https://www.google.c...optercrash/amp/

#114 avbug

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 07:46

Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"?

https://www.google.c...optercrash/amp/

 

 

Yes.  We used to do it regularly in J-3 cubs and Cessna 150's in a strong wind.  I've also flown them to a landing at a tie-down, and backward geographically; the airplane only requires adequate airspeed to fly.  If the airspeed is less than the prevailing wind, slowing to that airspeed while on a heading into the wind will produce a negative (backward) flight path.  The same can be done at the end of the runway in sufficient wind, with a vertical climb to pattern altitude and descent again.

 

That's irrelevant to the subject of the thread, however, which regards the logging of flight time when an aircraft first moves with the intention of flight under its own power.  Whether the aircraft moves upward or forward is irrelevant, and how it moves in relation to a geographical location is likewise irrelevant.


Edited by avbug, 12 April 2017 - 07:46.


#115 Astro

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 11:03

Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"?
https://www.google.c...optercrash/amp/


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#116 Northoftheborder

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 15:25


Good answer. The harrier hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks for the reply

#117 pokey

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 07:15

 

 

Yes.  We used to do it regularly in J-3 cubs and Cessna 150's in a strong wind.  I've also flown them to a landing at a tie-down

 

am i the only one that has my doubts about "regularly J3 & 150" right to their tie down spot?. I would think up a whopper for this one, but mom is banging on the ceiling, lunch is ready.



#118 helonorth

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 07:20

 

am i the only one that has my doubts about "regularly J3 & 150" right to their tie down spot?. I would think up a whopper for this one, but mom is banging on the ceiling, lunch is ready.

Well, at least he didn't say he did it in the 747. I would imagine there was an engine failure in there somewhere too, but he left it out for believability. 






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