Eric Hunt Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 Butters, you sure you have the skill to sit in a 1-skid hover for a full minute??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) Butters, you sure you have the skill to sit in a 1-skid hover for a full minute??? Sure, I just hit "pause" on the controller! I need a drink! Edited March 24, 2017 by r22butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted March 24, 2017 Report Share Posted March 24, 2017 What about when you start up while sitting on ice and the helicopter starts spinning around until the tail rotor has enough authority to stop it? It's moving under its own power, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 What about when you start up while sitting on ice and the helicopter starts spinning around until the tail rotor has enough authority to stop it? It's moving under its own power, right? Log it right up to the crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northoftheborder Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Your format is a bit confusing, but if "a" through "i" are answer choices, I'd pick "a" if I lived in Canada, because our logbooks down here don't look like these. For this one I'd pick "b".To be clear the above entries are not from any official logbook. Just notes made by the pilot throughout the flight of what occurred. Whether you are in Canada or the US, These take-off and Landings could be written down in a notepad or,tracked electronically or in a variety of ways. . So it appears you feel the US definition for flight time is consistent with the ICAO definition. Isn't that contrary to the FAA official interpretation? If so, in Q1 you have misrepresented your flight time by more than 100%, haven't you? I agree with you on the "time in service", 100% though. Anyone disagree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northoftheborder Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 The aircraft has moved under its own power for the purpose of flight. The minute may be logged in accordance with the regulation. Should time in service also be logged? § 1.1 Time in service means: with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 So it appears you feel the US definition for flight time is consistent with the ICAO definition. Isn't that contrary to the FAA official interpretation? If so, in Q1 you have misrepresented your flight time by more than 100%, haven't you? I agree with you on the "time in service", 100% though. Anyone disagree? I believe that our responsibilities as Pilot in Command begin as soon as we start the engine and don't end until the blades come to a full stop after shutdown (if anyone disagrees I suggest they ask the guy who got out of his 22 after shutdown, but before the blades stopped turning, to greet his little daughter who was running towards him. He instinctively picked her up, placing her right in the blade path, chopping off her head!). They tell that story at the Robinson Safety Course,...heard it like five times now!,...its really f*cked up! However, as The Bug has pointed out, my beliefs are irrelevant, and as Wally pointed out, there's nothing in there about logging "responsibility". I have not read the FAA "official interpretation", but the internet consensus seems to be that our definition of "flight time" reflects a skids up to skids down scenario, and (if I recall correctly?) the ICAO definition was that of something like "rotors turning to rotors stop", so (according to the internet), its actually my 22 time which would be considered as "misrepresented",...I think? Anyway, I don't really care who is correct, as I've said, I log off the hobbs, simply because I'm lazy! ,...make it a double! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 Should time in service also be logged? § 1.1 Time in service means:with respect to maintenance time records, means the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it touches it at the next point of landing.That depends upon the aircraft, appliance, component, or powerplant, as well as the regulation under which that item is operating. With respect to aircraft time in service, no; the aircraft has not left the surface any more that a high speed taxi of an airplane with the nosewheel or tailwheel in the air. With respect to various components, time in service is specific to time above certain power settings, start cycles, etc. some components, such as auxilliary power units, have entirely separate maintenance tracking for time in service that has nothing to do with the aircraft leaving the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iChris Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) I believe that our responsibilities as Pilot in Command begin as soon as we start the engine and don't end until the blades come to a full stop after shutdown Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not. §91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness. ( a ) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. ( b ) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is "responsible" for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight… Edited March 25, 2017 by iChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted March 25, 2017 Report Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not. Besides you skipping over my quote of what Wally said about there being nothing in the definition of "flight time" regarding the logging of "responsibilities" (which was a good point Wally, I'd never thought about that before!)... There comes a point when logic, reason, and what used to be called common sense are thrown out the window and replaced with utter ridiculousness! I think I'll draw that line at, I'm not sitting in the pilot seat, the engine isn't running, and/or the blades are no longer spinning! ,...and besides, the hobbs isn't turning while I'm pre-flighting! Well I no longer need that drink, this topic has become mind numbing enough! Edited March 25, 2017 by r22butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted March 26, 2017 Report Share Posted March 26, 2017 Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not. I had an "old timer" tell me to do just that...log time while doing pre-flights... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted March 26, 2017 Report Share Posted March 26, 2017 Your responsibilities started before you turned the key. So I guess, you can log flight time during your preflight inspection. If responsibilities are the only criteria to substantiate logging flight time, why not. §91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness. ( a ) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition. ( b ) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is "responsible" for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight…The PIC is responsible for determining if the aircraft is airworthy for flight, but actual personal responsibility for the aircraft 24/7 rests with the owner/operator. Perhaps if personal responsibility is the new orange is the new black is the new standard for logging time, the owner operator can log it around the clock. What a concept. Or: what, a concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northoftheborder Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.verticalmag.com/news/ntsbissuespreliminaryreportforgrandcanyonhelicoptercrash/amp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.verticalmag.com/news/ntsbissuespreliminaryreportforgrandcanyonhelicoptercrash/amp/ Yes. We used to do it regularly in J-3 cubs and Cessna 150's in a strong wind. I've also flown them to a landing at a tie-down, and backward geographically; the airplane only requires adequate airspeed to fly. If the airspeed is less than the prevailing wind, slowing to that airspeed while on a heading into the wind will produce a negative (backward) flight path. The same can be done at the end of the runway in sufficient wind, with a vertical climb to pattern altitude and descent again. That's irrelevant to the subject of the thread, however, which regards the logging of flight time when an aircraft first moves with the intention of flight under its own power. Whether the aircraft moves upward or forward is irrelevant, and how it moves in relation to a geographical location is likewise irrelevant. Edited April 12, 2017 by avbug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Has anyone on this forum ever heard of a fixed wing aircraft that became airborne when it wasnt moving "across the earth's surface"?https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.verticalmag.com/news/ntsbissuespreliminaryreportforgrandcanyonhelicoptercrash/amp/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northoftheborder Posted April 12, 2017 Report Share Posted April 12, 2017 Good answer. The harrier hadn't crossed my mind. Thanks for the reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pokey Posted April 13, 2017 Report Share Posted April 13, 2017 Yes. We used to do it regularly in J-3 cubs and Cessna 150's in a strong wind. I've also flown them to a landing at a tie-down am i the only one that has my doubts about "regularly J3 & 150" right to their tie down spot?. I would think up a whopper for this one, but mom is banging on the ceiling, lunch is ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted April 13, 2017 Report Share Posted April 13, 2017 am i the only one that has my doubts about "regularly J3 & 150" right to their tie down spot?. I would think up a whopper for this one, but mom is banging on the ceiling, lunch is ready.Well, at least he didn't say he did it in the 747. I would imagine there was an engine failure in there somewhere too, but he left it out for believability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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