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Life After Army MTP


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#21 C.R.O.

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:06

Another thread with tremendous potential that has turned to rubbish.  

 

Before I state my opinion, here's my background.  

 

Civilian trained, worked as a civilian CFI making <$20k a year.  So I can speak to having experience in that world.

 

Somehow fell into a DOD contractor position flying in Afghanistan making 6-figures.  Got a bit more than 800 hours of flying in Afghanistan.  So I can speak to having some experience in that world.  

 

Came home, did tours for several years.  Made 6-figures every year.  Worked 5/2, came home every night.  So I can speak to having some experience in that world.  

 

Recently, got hired to be the Chief Pilot for a 135 operation, currently hiring several pilots.  So I can speak to having some experience in that world too.  

 

So back to the questions posed by Jpaint21:

 

Is that MTP experience going to help you in the civilian world?  

 

Yes. Possibly.  Maybe no.  Depends.  

 

Yes, there are currently ads posted for UH-60 MTP's.  I don't know if those jobs are going to be the ones you are interested in, or offer the lifestyle you are seeking.  But there are jobs specifically seeking your qualifications.  

 

Possibly. When you get out, at some point you are going to have to start showing your resume. The more training and qualifications you get, the better off you are.  Who knows, that might be the item on your resume might just be the specific thing someone was looking for.  

 

Maybe no.  Eventually, if you continue to be a pilot in the civilian world, you will likely show your resume to someone who doesn't understand what "MTP" is.  They may not see value in it, they may prefer to hire someone who has more hours, or a different background.  

 

So yeah, it depends.  

 

I can tell you that your options are significantly more limited coming into the civilian world with such few hours though.  That's just a fact.  

 

My recommendations are to get whatever flight experience you can right now.  Get help writing your resume so it looks professionally done (it matters).  Network your ass off, call your friends who have gotten out over the last few years, and ask their opinion, and see what they see your options as. 

 

Try and get some practice interviews in.  I did this recently with a pilot who is coming out of the Army later this year.  Our forecasted timeline didn't really meet up well with his exit from the Army.  I told him so, but offered to interview him anyways so he could get experience and I also gave him a critique of his resume.  

 

Don't look down on positions you don't have experience in yet.  Tours aren't really a crappy job, depending on who you work for.  Working 5/2 and getting paid $100k+ isn't my definition of a crappy job.  And it will get you some needed hours.  

Or you can do some contracting.  As mentioned, there are positions for UH-60 MTP's currently being advertised.  Of course, even those require certain hour requirements.  



#22 r22butters

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:28

Look dude. I'm going to put it to you bluntly. Those +1100 hours in the military are earned. The amount of planning,  hours of studying, type of flying, stress, and risk to mission/force are significantly higher than Day VFR or a Night IFR hop that most civilian pilots will experience at those numbers of hours. There's a reason why there's a selection process in order to do that job. Additionally, You don't get handed sh*t in the military, a unit can swap/trade pilots off of flight schedule if one is underperforming or doesn't have his head in the game. It's called selective scheduling. This is not even to mention the type of deployments and hazards in a combat zone that literally greater than 75% of military pilots have experienced in the last 15 years. You haven't done any of that, nor should you pass judgement on the types of people who have experienced it and just want to take care of their family.
 
It pisses me off that you complain about just hours. I don't care about hours. I care about getting home, having a decent sleep schedule, working normal hours, and being with family for greater than 2 day weekend. He is making a decision for his family and not to appease his resume, and he sure as hell does not give a crap about your preception of a vain attitude towards low paying/high tempo jobs that some people would beg to have. 
 
Lastly, if you want those hours and licenses, then get off of your whiney little butt and join the military and bag some hours. Otherwise, think before putting your fingers to plastic. Your perception is based off of the vantage point from which you sit, and you are way off base.

We don't get handed sh*t either! We have families to support too!

That's no excuse to look down your nose at jobs countless civilian pilots would give their left nut for! THAT'S WHAT PISSES ME OFF!

Get off your high horse!

,...and he doesn't have 1100+ hours, he lied about that!

STOP TELLING ME TO JOIN THE MILITARY! I CAN HAVE A VALID OPININION WITHOUT BEING A SOLDIER!

Edited by r22butters, 26 March 2017 - 11:38.

The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fifteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#23 Jpaint21

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 13:10

Firstly, I never lied about my hours. I said I had less than 1200, not 1100+. My lack of hours is not due to lack of time in the military. Hours are hard as hell to come by now. If u had spent the same amount of time in but started five years earlier, I would probably have 2000+. I've been flying for nearly 7 years. After about the first two, my company's allotted flight hours due to the budget got cut by 80% and have never fully recovered.

Secondly, I don't necessarily have my heart set on flying. I know I don't have the hours required. I have a maintenance degree and maintenance experience, so I thought maybe someone lurking around these forums knew of a possible transition in that direction. I'm discovering that I'll probably have to start out as an A&P though, so essentially my ten years in the military would've been better spent elsewhere.

I am leaving the military for a better life for my family. I have the right to make that choice whether you all agree with it or not. Financially the Army is way overpaying their pilots vs what I'm seeing in the civilian world, and that was something I didn't know until recently.

I appreciate some of you for being helpful. The rest of you can continue arguing with each other if you wish to. It doesn't sound like my experience will get me anywhere, so I guess I'll just have to get used to that.

#24 C.R.O.

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 14:37


Secondly, I don't necessarily have my heart set on flying. I know I don't have the hours required. I have a maintenance degree and maintenance experience, so I thought maybe someone lurking around these forums knew of a possible transition in that direction. I'm discovering that I'll probably have to start out as an A&P though, so essentially my ten years in the military would've been better spent elsewhere.
 

 

Nothing wrong with being an A&P.  In fact right now, finding good mechanics is tougher than finding good pilots.  

 

I guess the big question I have for you is this:

 

Where do you want to be?  Now, in five years, 10 years?  What's the goal?  



#25 r22butters

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 15:20

Firstly, I never lied about my hours. I said I had less than 1200, not 1100+.

Sure "less than 900 hours" is still less than 1200 hours, so technically you did not lie,...my bad, sorry!

However, I have just under 800 hours and by your reasoning I too could say I have less than 1200 hours,...oh' why oh' why then will Papillon not talk to me!?

I'm sorry things aren't going like you want them to, but if you hadn't misrepresented yourself in your first post, I never would have responded (since you are not qualified for a job as a tour pilot) and no one would be arguing here and Weener Boy wouldn't have thrown his hissy fit!

See the chain of events?

Anyway, I'm not a soldier, but if I was, I think it would be this comment that I would find more insulting, than some civilian loser getting his panties in a bunch over a military pilot looking down his nose at civilian jobs!?

Is it really ten years of wasted time that the Army leaves you with if you don't get those magical hours?

,...but that's just me?

Good luck in whatever you find yourslf perusing!

Edited by r22butters, 26 March 2017 - 15:33.

The only dream I have left is to live long enough to see the pilot shortage. Its been about fifteen years since they first told me it was coming, so,...

Aaaaaaaany day now! :D

#26 Jpaint21

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 15:40

I said "Less than 1200" because it seems like that is the threshold for pilot jobs. I was asking if there were any positions that would consider you for less than that.

You obviously aren't a soldier and don't have any idea what military aviation looks like, so don't even try to put yourself in those shoes.

I'm sorry you wasted your time in my thread. Feel free to quit responding.

If you spent ten years of your life in a car that ended up leaving you in the same position you were in before you started, you might have a bad taste in your mouth about the whole thing as well. Especially if that career made you miss a year of your child's life, among many other important events, as well as getting you shot at and all the other things that go along with a war zone. It would be nice to feel like it wasn't a decade of time wasted. Sorry if you don't like that attitude.

#27 Wally

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 19:31

Look dude. I'm going to put it to you bluntly. Those +1100 hours in the military are earned. The amount of planning,  hours of studying, type of flying, stress, and risk to mission/force are significantly higher than Day VFR or a Night IFR hop that most civilian pilots will experience at those numbers of hours. There's a reason why there's a selection process in order to do that job. Additionally, You don't get handed sh*t in the military, a unit can swap/trade pilots off of flight schedule if one is underperforming or doesn't have his head in the game. It's called selective scheduling. This is not even to mention the type of deployments and hazards in a combat zone that literally greater than 75% of military pilots have experienced in the last 15 years. You haven't done any of that, nor should you pass judgement on the types of people who have experienced it and just want to take care of their family.
 
It pisses me off that you complain about just hours. I don't care about hours. I care about getting home, having a decent sleep schedule, working normal hours, and being with family for greater than 2 day weekend. He is making a decision for his family and not to appease his resume, and he sure as hell does not give a crap about your preception of a vain attitude towards low paying/high tempo jobs that some people would beg to have. 
 
Lastly, if you want those hours and licenses, then get off of your whiney little butt and join the military and bag some hours. Otherwise, think before putting your fingers to plastic. Your perception is based off of the vantage point from which you sit, and you are way off base.

I hope I'm reading this all wrong, but my impression is not positive.
You do what you do because it is the right thing to do, a duty that's an honor to be entrusted with. That isn't quantifiable in the civilian world. The extra work you put it for those flight hours is part of the green suit deal, you are a professional soldier (or marine, you have a Super Cobra image as your icon).

I'm embarrassed to this day when people thank me for my service and welcome me home. What else could I do but fulfill the oath? I'm happy that the guys I served with still speak to me and seem to think I did a fair job...

You will get quiet preference forever with your service history, at least that's my experience. They won't add a thousand hours to your logbook to offer you the position, but the qualities that drove you to wings and service will give you a notch over some pretty substantial competition.

Edited by Wally, 26 March 2017 - 19:34.

Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#28 Hotdogs

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 23:47

When r22butters scarfices half of what it takes to get to that point then I'd be concerned. Otherwise I completely understand a service member making a decision for his family. If anyone critizes that then they are thinking with the wrong priorities in mind. Most servicemen/women are lucky to keep their family/marriage in tact while serving these days. I have the utmost respect for those who make family thier priority. If I was told I'd make half of what I do now flying tours in the ditch, and it wouldn't support my families lifestyle, I'd tell them to get bent as well. If it's perceived as beneath me, then so be it.

#29 Hotdogs

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 00:32

I hope I'm reading this all wrong, but my impression is not positive.
You do what you do because it is the right thing to do, a duty that's an honor to be entrusted with. That isn't quantifiable in the civilian world. The extra work you put it for those flight hours is part of the green suit deal, you are a professional soldier (or marine, you have a Super Cobra image as your icon).

I'm embarrassed to this day when people thank me for my service and welcome me home. What else could I do but fulfill the oath? I'm happy that the guys I served with still speak to me and seem to think I did a fair job...

You will get quiet preference forever with your service history, at least that's my experience. They won't add a thousand hours to your logbook to offer you the position, but the qualities that drove you to wings and service will give you a notch over some pretty substantial competition.

 

 

I don't know why you joined or what drove you to serve, but for me it was a great many factors. One of which was the type of people I served with, and the vast majority of them had morals beyond reproach, above average work ethic, and very thick skin. Lots of people join the military with out the sense of duty that may have drove you. I have very little patience for the uninitiated or those who do nothing but complain and put down others for their own lack of maturity. The attitude that military guys get handed hours because we just show up to work is very very far from the truth or that we expect to get paid more for our type of hours is a lie. To be honest, most of my peers who have made the jump out of the gun club have not gone on to fly, and it was not because of a lack of hours. It was because they had skill sets that were more financially viable for their quality of life. That is totally up to the individual.

 

Butters has insinuated these comments before, and I have usually passively just ignored it. For some reason, my blood went straight to boiling when I read his post basically accosting some person he doesn't even know. If I think flying tours is somehow beneath me, then that does not make a tour pilot less of an aviator or inferior as a person in any respect. It just means I would not enjoy that particular job, and find other employment more advantagous - be it in an aircraft or not. It is also not this forum's perpetual never ending whiner (r22) prerogative to say what is good enough for other pilots - especially ones coming out of the service who experiences in an aircraft are different in terms of training and operational experience. Let alone what that experience may have had on a service member's family. It does not make him (r22) less of a pilot in anyway, but his comments lack context based off of a point of view he has never had, and therefore lack some credibility. 



#30 Wally

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:06

 

I have very little patience for the uninitiated or those who do nothing but complain and put down others for their own lack of maturity. The attitude that military guys get handed hours because we just show up to work is very very far from the truth or that we expect to get paid more for our type of hours is a lie. To be honest, most of my peers who have made the jump out of the gun club have not gone on to fly, and it was not because of a lack of hours. It was because they had skill sets that were more financially viable for their quality of life. That is totally up to the individual.

 

Butters has insinuated these comments before, and I have usually passively just ignored it. For some reason, my blood went straight to boiling when I read his post basically accosting some person he doesn't even know. If I think flying tours is somehow beneath me, then that does not make a tour pilot less of an aviator or inferior as a person in any respect. It just means I would not enjoy that particular job, and find other employment more advantagous - be it in an aircraft or not.

 

Got it.

Many people misunderstand the service in a fundamental way, especially the aviation side. That may even be worse now than when I left the service in '71, what with a smaller, more professional service and no draft. A much smaller percentage of the overall population overall serve.

Don't mistake r22butters attitude for typical.


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#31 Jpaint21

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 09:20

I think you'll see a lot more of people like me over the next few years.  Most of my friends are running for the hills because the Army has gotten to be quite the dog and pony show.  Nearly all the good leadership I've had over the years are already gone.  Most of my friends are getting out as soon as they can.  At least in aviation, they have actually started to refuse people's resignation requests and have started shipping people OCONUS to get them on the hook for 3 more years.  Basically stop loss for officers.  They tried to do the same to me and I narrowly escaped it by using the regs against them.  There must have been some HR memos created to allow them around the regs now.  

 

Sorry if some of you feel like I'm ungrateful and joined the service for the wrong reasons.  I'm proud to have served my country, but it's no longer worth the sacrifice to me based on the current working environment, and another ten years still wouldn't get me what I would need for a decent civilian career.  The retirement paycheck and benefits would obviously be nice, but another 10 years of this isn't worth it to me.  It would've been nice if I had something to show for my service other than a DD214, but it doesn't appear that the civilian world sees military time and experience as valuable, so that's all I've got.  Thanks to those of you who have offered advice.  It looks like it's back to the basics for me and we'll just have to get used to that.  

 

I don't mean any offense to tour pilots at all, but I'm beyond the phase of life where I'm willing to do that kind of a job.  Many people don't feel the same way, and that's perfectly fine. I'm just not one of them. 



#32 SBuzzkill

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 14:17

Everything I've been seeing from the bigger tour companies is quite attractive.  I wouldn't write it off completely.  It's where I want to end up.

 

Anyways, did the Army try to hold on to you after you completed your ADSO for flight school?  That's quite interesting if that's the case.  I do know a guy that they're denying UQR, he did the Envoy thing and apparently the Army isn't ready to let him go.  He has time on his ADSO still.


Edited by SBuzzkill, 27 March 2017 - 14:18.


#33 Jpaint21

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 14:27

Everything I've been seeing from the bigger tour companies is quite attractive.  I wouldn't write it off completely.  It's where I want to end up.

 

Anyways, did the Army try to hold on to you after you completed your ADSO for flight school?  That's quite interesting if that's the case.  I do know a guy that they're denying UQR, he did the Envoy thing and apparently the Army isn't ready to let him go.  He has time on his ADSO still.

 

They didn't try to hang on to me after my ADSO.  They did try to add a year to it that wasn't warranted, to which I pointed out the regs and they couldn't argue.  This was after they tried to send me to Korea while I was already on deployment orders with my current unit.  It was a nightmare trying to get everything sorted out.

 

One of my buddies (a captain), however, had his UQR turned down at the end of his ADSO and they are sending him to Germany, which is a 3-year requirement.  He had a job lined up as well, and he's having to turn it down now.

 

I'm a Warrant, and we've been hearing rumors that they are going to be doing essentially the same thing to CW3's and 4s.  A stateside assignment only gets them 2 more years, so they are doing OCONUS assignments because then they can hook you for 3.  



#34 C.R.O.

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 20:53

 

 

I don't mean any offense to tour pilots at all, but I'm beyond the phase of life where I'm willing to do that kind of a job.  Many people don't feel the same way, and that's perfectly fine. I'm just not one of them. 

 

 

Yeah, we got that. 

 

So, once again, what is it, exactly, that you are looking for?  What job do you want now? In 5 years? 10 years?  



#35 Jpaint21

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 21:35

I want a decent job that allows me to support my family both financially and otherwise. The Army is good money, but not much else. I've always loved aviation and all of my education and experience is in the industry, so I want to stay in it somehow (on the ground is fine). A reliable schedule is one of my highest priorities.

Right now, I never know until I'm walking out the door what time I'll get off work. It isn't uncommon to put in 12-16 hour days, and my schedule is very irregular. Some days I work during the day, others at night, usually with very little notice of the change. It isn't uncommon to find out on Thursday or Friday that I have to work on Saturday or Sunday, typically for something stupid but I can't argue. I can't participate in anything, because I can't commit to regularly scheduled events. It's hell on my family and on me. I want to be able to coach my kid's soccer team or something.

I want a decent paying job that allows me to support a wife and 2+ kids, especially since the military life has totally wrecked her career path as well. I'm really not super picky about the job itself. I like maintenance, manufacturing, quality, etc. At this point it appears that I'm stuck back at entry level though, which is the frustrating part after ten years of working.

Due to all the things mentioned above, the rotor to fixed wing airline transitions are out. I would love to do it, but I can't do that to my family (unpaid training time, sketchy schedule, huge initial pay cut). I don't have enough hours to keep flying helicopters, obviously.

It appears that I will be moving to Wichita and praying hard...

#36 C.R.O.

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 18:34

Please take anything I say in the constructive intent in which it is offered.  

 

 

I want a decent job that allows me to support my family both financially and otherwise. The Army is good money, but not much else. I've always loved aviation and all of my education and experience is in the industry, so I want to stay in it somehow (on the ground is fine). A reliable schedule is one of my highest priorities.

 

But what specifically would you like to do?  What's your passion?  What in aviation would you like to focus on?  

Right now, I never know until I'm walking out the door what time I'll get off work. It isn't uncommon to put in 12-16 hour days, and my schedule is very irregular. Some days I work during the day, others at night, usually with very little notice of the change. It isn't uncommon to find out on Thursday or Friday that I have to work on Saturday or Sunday, typically for something stupid but I can't argue. I can't participate in anything, because I can't commit to regularly scheduled events. It's hell on my family and on me. I want to be able to coach my kid's soccer team or something.

 

Welcome to aviation.  There are jobs that allow a normal schedule though.  Some are flying jobs, some are office gigs.  The trick is to find what skill and knowledge base you bring, and leverage that into a good job.  For example, right now, my company is trying to identify someone with a strong safety background to grow into a safety officer position.  That person will likely be someone coming out of the military because they provide some of the best training for that specific position.  

 

Find your skill set, figure out who needs you, and find your success.  

I want a decent paying job that allows me to support a wife and 2+ kids, especially since the military life has totally wrecked her career path as well. I'm really not super picky about the job itself. I like maintenance, manufacturing, quality, etc. At this point it appears that I'm stuck back at entry level though, which is the frustrating part after ten years of working.

 

That's because, really you are entry level when it comes to the civilian world.  That's not an insult, it's just the way it is.  You aren't starting at level 0.  But you aren't going to jump into a management position right off the bat, more than likely.  

Due to all the things mentioned above, the rotor to fixed wing airline transitions are out. I would love to do it, but I can't do that to my family (unpaid training time, sketchy schedule, huge initial pay cut). I don't have enough hours to keep flying helicopters, obviously.

 

You do have enough time, or close enough to it to continue flying.  Question is if you are willing to open your mind to those positions.  

It appears that I will be moving to Wichita and praying hard...



#37 Dnr032

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 20:34

I have not looked at an Army Times magazine in a long, long time, but there used to be multiple advertisments in the back from head-hunting firms that specilaized in JMO's that,were separating from the military. I know that you are a WO, but have you contacted one of these firms?

Just my thoughts....

#38 Jpaint21

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 08:22

I have not looked at an Army Times magazine in a long, long time, but there used to be multiple advertisments in the back from head-hunting firms that specilaized in JMO's that,were separating from the military. I know that you are a WO, but have you contacted one of these firms?

Just my thoughts....

 

Yes, I've gotten in touch with Bradley-Morris and a couple others.  They are willing to help me, but they have very few contacts in aerospace.  They are mostly getting people jobs as managers in various business industries.  I guess I'm an outlier in that I want to stay in my current industry, since many soldiers can't actually do that because they are more in combat skills positions.  I'm not totally discounting them, but so far they haven't been much help.  Recruiters in general have been very flaky with communication and such.  Thanks for the suggestion though.



#39 Jpaint21

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 08:37

Please take anything I say in the constructive intent in which it is offered.  

 

 

 

I appreciate your constructive thoughts.  I am coming to realize that my experience is generally useless, at least for now, until I get my foot in the door in civilian aviation and maybe it will help me get promoted a little quicker.  I didn't necessarily know that when I posted my initial question, which is largely why I posted it in the first place.  I was simply hoping maybe someone knew an MTP that went on to do something other than just flying and could share that experience with me.

 

My passion has always been to fly, but at this point I'm just not willing to do what it would take to continue down that career path.  I know it's not impossible, but I'm not interested.  I tried it and it didn't get me where I wanted to go, and that's why I went to college before I joined the military (to have a backup plan).  I can still fly as a hobby, and I plan on it.  

 

As I said before, I'm really not that picky.  I am currently filling the role of Quality Control for my battalion, and I do enjoy that work.  I know I can't get into a Quality position without some civilian experience though.  I also like avionics and have a degree in that, so I could see myself at a place like Garmin or Rockwell Collins (and yes, I'm looking into jobs at those places).  I also think manufacturing or maintenance would be fine.

 

I'm having a hard time finding anyone who wants my specific skill set, and that is largely the problem.  I am a jack of all trades and master of none, and Army experience and FAA experience are not one and the same.  The Army has given me TI authority to do inspections, but that doesn't get me any closer to an IA from the FAA.  I do quality control and maintenance scheduling, but since I haven't been a hands on mechanic for a few years in a part 145 station, I'm not qualified to do that as a civilian.  It just doesn't translate well from one side to the other.

 

At this point, I've applied for several jobs and contacted several recruiters and heard almost nothing back, so I'm not going to limit myself by saying I'm only interested in one specific thing.  The fact is that Sept 15 is my last (partial) paycheck from the Army, and I've got to have some kind of income when that day arrives.



#40 air_1

air_1

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 14:35

I see MTP type listings quite frequently here in Huntsville AL, but most require at least 1500. Take a gander at JSFirm for all the jobs in regards to the military/government sector. Also, if you're not 100% set on flying...there's a lot of other various gov't type jobs on there also in the area. 

 

http://www.jsfirm.co...searchquickjobs






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