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Airspeed Differences: 64E vs. 64D vs. UH60


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#1 Spartan13

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 13:14

I was looking around here a few weeks ago and I remember reading someone comparing the capabilities of Blackhawks and Apaches, saying that often Blackhawks are providing their own escort as the Apaches can't keep up (although I can't seem to find that post anymore). I also talked to my buddy at my unit here who remembers riding in the back of a Blackhawk on deployment and hearing the pilots constantly saying they have to slow down so that the Apaches can catch up. I know I can read the specs for each airframe but I wanted to get info from pilots that have actually flown these aircraft.

Basically, my questions is this: For Apache pilots: In actual training and real world missions, does the aircraft feel "slow" to you? Also, do the E Model Apaches gain a lot of extra power with their upgraded engines or does the weight from the extra equipment offset the power gain? I'm just curious when these two aircraft work together, if there really is a noticeable difference or if it's pretty negligible. Thanks!

#2 SBuzzkill

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 13:26

It's often the case when mixing airframe types that one helicopter is going to be faster than another.  They are different enough in terms of load, drag, power available, etc. that on a given day you might have a big difference in airspeed.

 

"Slow" is a relative term.  Even if another helicopter is pulling away from me, if I'm pulling all the power I have and going as fast as I can, I never feel like I'm going slow.  Unless of course we're up at 10,000 feet, because up there it feels like you're not even moving :blink:


Edited by SBuzzkill, 04 August 2017 - 13:27.


#3 dovq2011

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 18:02

One of you 64E chumps jump in because I'm only limited here: So the 64E in addition to the better engine also has a bigger transmission, slightly larger rotor blades (~1 ft. longer than the 64D), and composite rotor blades.  This makes up for the lack of power in the 64D since it's a pretty fat bird when fully loaded.



#4 StockTrader

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 18:20

One of you 64E chumps jump in because I'm only limited here: So the 64E in addition to the better engine also has a bigger transmission, slightly larger rotor blades (~1 ft. longer than the 64D), and composite rotor blades.  This makes up for the lack of power in the 64D since it's a pretty fat bird when fully loaded.


Except for that whole LTE thing because they decided not to change the tail rotor at all.

#5 dovq2011

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 19:27

Except for that whole LTE thing because they decided not to change the tail rotor at all.

Small details bro. How's Drum?



#6 Luofynerd

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 19:35

One of you 64E chumps jump in because I'm only limited here: So the 64E in addition to the better engine also has a bigger transmission, slightly larger rotor blades (~1 ft. longer than the 64D), and composite rotor blades.  This makes up for the lack of power in the 64D since it's a pretty fat bird when fully loaded.

The transmission is more efficient and puts out more torque but it's smaller in terms of height, bigger girth. I'm almost certain the Engines are the same(the deltas were running Charlie power and the echos were at delta power, with the edecu, even the deltas mostly all run d power now. The main difference is the NGB is angled differently which changes the amount or torque lost from engine to xmsn. The blades yes are like six inches longer and are composite so weigh less, provide more lift, and a lot of wire bundles are removed to reduce the weight of acft. Could be partially wrong though, I'm just a mechanic not a pilot (hopefully one day)
I'm echo model qualified but haven't worked on them since they were first introduced into our inventory. So yeah.

#7 StockTrader

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 19:56

Small details bro. How's Drum?


Haha. Its actually not as bad as the rumors make it. Decent flight time and I ended up in a great unit. When are you done?

#8 SBuzzkill

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 20:49

Nevermind.


Edited by SBuzzkill, 04 August 2017 - 20:49.


#9 Trogdor

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 21:35

The other big difference is mission. The Blackhawk's job when it's in a hurry is typically a) medevac b. exfil c) ass and trash. Usually that means that they are no where near their max weight and therefore have a lot of extra power to use for airspeed. The apache's job on the other hand is typically a) take off with as much gas (=equals time on station to provide fires) and ammo (=fires) leaving much less excess power to use for airspeed. So yes lift will continue outrunning their escorts and if escort is really needed that is a mistake you will probably only make once.

#10 akscott60

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 22:32

No one wants to talk to the speed king?

 

I kid, I kid. There is no such thing as a fast helicopter. 


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#11 METT-TC

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 12:55

The other big difference is mission. The Blackhawk's job when it's in a hurry is typically a) medevac b. exfil c) ass and trash.

 

It is ash and trash...from our Vietnam lineage. Google has more if you get bored.



#12 Drew

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Posted 05 August 2017 - 20:44

Can't speak to combat, but on one of my last flights we were clocking 140 knots and were only pulling about 85% torque if I remember correctly. So I knew it had a lot more in it. But the 64E was smooth as glass, granted we were only at around 16000 lbs, so not even close to a combat load.

#13 SBuzzkill

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:37

Flying slow can seem like a bummer at first glance.  Sometimes it means that those cross country self deployments take longer ;)


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#14 Spartan13

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:57

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I love everything about the Apache, but when I started hearing it was slow I started to get bummed. Good to hear that it's not really an issue!

#15 brackac

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 18:03

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I love everything about the Apache, but when I started hearing it was slow I started to get bummed. Good to hear that it's not really an issue!

 

Why would the Apache being slow bum you out? That's just weird.



#16 DaveC

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:06

No one wants to talk to the speed king?
 
I kid, I kid. There is no such thing as a fast helicopter. 

Seriously, I've gone faster in a Mooney at 13 GPH than a Blackhawk pulling the guts out at over 1000 PPH.

See the light, push the button, get the banana.


#17 Ritter

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 13:51

Seriously, I've gone faster in a Mooney at 13 GPH than a Blackhawk pulling the guts out at over 1000 PPH.

 

Two completely different aircraft with two completely different roles. But yes, helicopters are slow as hell... even my beloved Chinook. 



#18 Spartan13

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 22:18

For me, it wasn't the actual speed that bummed me out a little. It was the speed relative to other airframes that the Apache might be supporting. I've supported the infantry on the ground being heavier and moving slower than them. I just didn't like the idea of not being able to keep up in the air.
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#19 dirtyfoot

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:14

For me, it wasn't the actual speed that bummed me out a little. It was the speed relative to other airframes that the Apache might be supporting. I've supported the infantry on the ground being heavier and moving slower than them. I just didn't like the idea of not being able to keep up in the air.

This is a weird thread.
I dunno man, maybe fly airplanes? 


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#20 Stump

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:16

This is a weird thread.
I dunno man, maybe fly airplanes? 


#TransferTheA10ToTheArmy2K17
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