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Rethinking my decision to go WOFT...

WOFT OCS Warrant Commisioned

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#1 Newby123

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 21:05

25 year old, single white male here.

 

I'm expecting to be accepted into WOFT (street to seat) in a few weeks, and I'm wondering if I should have tried to go the commissioned officer route instead. I understand it's about an 8 year commitment if you include flight school, so I guess I better be darn sure before I sign papers.

 

Background: 2 months ago, I started my WOFT packet after hearing how incredible it is. The main selling points for me were:

1. Serve your country

2. Guaranteed slot as a pilot, before enlisting

3. Warrant Officers got more flight hours, and put up with less      bureaucratic stress/paperwork

4. I think Aviation is both something that I'll do very well at, and enjoy

 

Fast forward to today, I finished my packet last week, and I'm waiting for the board to meet at Ft. Rucker, and hopefully I'll be picked up at the end of the month. I hate to be so cocky by assuming I'll be picked, but everything seems to suggest that's the case. My recruiter said last quarter all 15 WOFT applicants were accepted, and there stats weren't terribly high, on average. Here's my packet:

 

B.A. in Liberal Arts, 3.5 GPA

PFT: 270

GT: 136

SIFT: 65

LOR's: a few retired military pilots and a priest

0 criminal offences, 0 tattoos, 0 medical problems, perfect vision, etc. 

 

I passed my board interview, and they said they would give me a "pretty high recommendation"

 

The reason I'm having second thoughts all of sudden, is:

1.You only live once, and you should offer everything you can to go as far as you can in life.

2. I dislike the idea of being outranked by every 2nd LT that comes out of OCS for my whole career. (Pride?)

3. if I chose to stay in the military, I'd like to have room to "climb the ladder", whereas Warrants only go up to W-5

4. I'm not driven by money, but by my rough calculations, Commissioned officers will make about $113,000 more than Warrants, over the 6 year commitment. That's not crumbs. And that gap would only widen, if I chose to stay in the military. 

 

Here's the calculations I used, based on averages in the 2018 pay scale, and not including time in flight school, aviator pay, or other factors:

 

Commissioned
0-1, 2 years, ($3,100/month) ($37,200/year)      $74,400+
0-2, 2 years, ($4,000/month) ($48,000/year)       $96,000+
0-3, 2 years, ($5,500/month) ($66,000/year)       $132,000=
                                                                                        $376,800
 
Warrant
W-1, 2 years, ($3,000/month) ($36,000/year)       $72,000+
W-2, 4 years, ($4,000/month) ($48,000/year)        $192,000=
                                                                                         $264,000
$112,800 Difference

 

The main reason I didn't consider other military branches, was because I feared it would be too competitive. But now, considering how I scored after preparing for about a month, and considering how every branch seems to be going through an extreme pilot shortage, I'm wondering if I should shoot higher. 

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Am I being too cocky? Is putting up with the bureaucracy on the commissioned side not worth the extra money and prestige?

 

I would hate to tell my recruiter that I'm switching lanes, after already being accepted. But like I said, it's a 6 year commitment, plus 2 years of flight school. I don't want to be regretting not commissioning for the next 8 years. And having already put the packet together, I'm sure I could put together another packet for OCS in just a few months.

 

Side note, I'm not sure what  I would do after my 8 years. If I liked the military, I might stay in and retire. Or leave and fly on the civilian side. Or take the GI bill and go back to school. I love having options.

 



#2 mike0331

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:10

Eh... I wouldn't want to chance not getting aviation, unless you are cool with potentially being an officer in another branch -- that can include some pretty un-sexy parts of the military. You are absolutely right, in some respects career advancement for commissioned officers can potentially take you much further. It also gets very political, and rising through the ranks isn't as simple as just hanging on and being good at your job. 

 

As far as pride and rank go, a 2nd Lt outranking you shouldn't hurt your pride because they are a commissioned officer. As a Sergeant in the USMC I of course respected the rank, but any good officer will also respect the experience of those "junior" to them. Furthermore in the aviation community there seems to be a much more laid back attitude between everyone from what I've seen in meeting with various aviators as I start this process. I wouldn't expect a bunch of hardos measuring their worth off their collar. 

 

As far as what you can offer, simply having rank is not offering more. 100s of thousands of lower enlisted have offered more than many generals ever have. Simply go to any American military cemetery to see how this plays out. 

 

Have you looked into WO to CO routes? I know a retired major who made the jump from WO to CO. From what I understand you typically wouldn't jump from W3 to O1 for example, it may be to O2 or in some circumstances directly to O3. I'm sure some on here can comment.

 

Mike


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#3 UH60MCE

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 11:10

Just by your write-up, you sound like a commissioned officer. I insist you withdraw your application and/or rescind your acceptance- assuming you get selected, right?

I have only met one person who went from Aviation Warrant to Commisioned, and that was to be a Physicians Assistant. It sounds like money and prestige are huge motivators for you. I can almost guarantee you: IF you go commissioned, and IF you are able to get into Aviation based off order or merit and grades competing against your peers, your life as a line company platoon leader with not be more prestigious than that of a Warrant Officer. They make more money because they deal with more BS. Aviation Warrants fly. Aviation Platoon Leaders sometimes fly. Commanders make their minimums so everyone else can fly and they can do everything else required of a Company grade Officer.

You dont see Warrants go Commisioned very often. You see Commisioned Officers resigning to go Warrant ALL THE TIME. But, like I said, if youre even contemplating it I would rethink your choices and do what you want to do. Being a Warrant Officer isnt for everyone. Theres no shame in that.

*theres apostrophes in my reply, not sure why they wont show up on the mobile version 🤷🏻‍♂
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#4 Dmurray

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 11:19

It sounds like you already have your decision made.

I would tell you that some of the finest leaders I have met were Warrant Officers. However, I dont think being a leader is why you want to be commission.

I hope that if you do go commission, you put pride aside long enough to care for your soldiers.
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#5 Thedude

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 11:32

If you get selected and make it through training you’ll realize a lot of what you’re talking about doesn’t matter. No one cares that a 2LT/1LT technically outranks them, it simply isn’t a factor, especially in aviation. There’s plenty of room to “go up the ladder” as a warrant officer. There is no special prestige to being a RLO and the extra money is in no way worth it.
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#6 MichiganHoosier

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 12:11

As an Officer trying to go Warrant, I share the same sentiment as shared above about the relationship between and LT and a WO/CWO. If there is ever an LT who genuinely makes a Warrant feel outranked, that LT is a douche nozzle.

 

As an Officer, you heavily rely and lean on Warrants for expert opinion. In doing so, you respect the hell out of them. In my experience (which includes working at a Corps HQ), a Warrant is in a whole different class than an LT/Junior Captain. But if you can't swallow your pride enough to render a salute and respond with a "sir" or "ma'am" to an LT, then I don't think the Army is for you. Because until you're a general, there is always going to be someone who outranks you and no matter how they are as a person, you have to respect their rank.

 

With regards to money, the Army isn't the place to be for a pay check. Because even as an Officer, you'll have friends who get out or have been ranking up in the civilian world making two or three times your pay. Also, don't forget about the benefits that aviators receive compared to non-rated officers. It tends to even itself out somewhat. In the end, do what you love. If you want to fly, go Warrant.  If a Specialist can have a house and afford nice things for their family, you can get by on Warrant pay.

 

Also, this is extremely hypothetical as you haven't even been accepted yet. Once thing you'll learn in the army is to never put the cart before the horse because they'll find a way to screw you. If you decide to go OCS, that's how I commissioned so I'd be willing to answer questions. Your attitude seems a little crummy, so that is something you have to work on. You also could always go Air Force....

 

Good luck!


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#7 METT-TC

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 12:38

Having been enlisted, commissioned, warrant, commissioned (yes, that order), I will not write an epic, but I will say that there is more to quality of life than simply the paycheck. Pay helps lessen the BS threshold, but it sure doesn't make the end all, be all for quality of life. Prestige as a commissioned guy / gal? I suppose it does a bit WHILE IN COMMAND (company commander, battalion, brigade commander--that last one is an extremely rare opportunity WAY down the road). That is 1.5 to 4 years for 95% of the commissioned officer population...over 20 years.

 

Prestige as a commissioned staff officer (vast majority of that career)--umm, no. You shall grind along making sure the machine runs. There are "outs" in that career, but they take you off the "Aviation Operations" rails for the most part.

 

Prestige as a warrant officer--once you make CW2, that occurs from just about everyone outside of Aviation. Will you realize it? Probably not. Inside Aviation / your unit, well no. Not until you become valuable / marked ie company / battalion lead, or tracked and worth a crap...reputation as a go to). Hence you will see a lot of disgruntlement from some of the guys and gals here--deservedly so. Command climate (how you are treated as a pro, etc) matters. And apparently the Army has rushed back to "garrison" really quickly in some units / posts / locales.

 

Quality of life for me? Even though I went back as a maxed (time in service) O3E and O4 (so $$ was better than average) for retirement, best quality of life (read enjoyment) was by far as a mid-seniorish warrant. Realized that really quickly as I went back to building slide decks for senior staff on that first post warrant assignment (what was I thinking??).

 

End of the day financials (whether you stay for 20+ or 8), stay away from First Command Financial, etc, DO "pay"/fund your retirement first, and go to someplace like bogleheads.org (financial forum with a whole bunch of 7 figure plus net worths) and learn to use a LOW COST index fund / TSP portforlio, and you'll be a 7 figure plus (in today's dollars) guy or gal at the end of a 20 year career. Or well on your way if the military commitment is much less for you. Just DO NOT rely on Uncle Sammy. Okay, off the soapbox (just hate seeing peeps rely on the job or actual lottery to gain financial / da*n the man independence).


Edited by METT-TC, 15 January 2018 - 12:40.

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#8 ByteFlighter

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 13:22


The main reason I didn't consider other military branches, was because I feared it would be too competitive. But now, considering how I scored after preparing for about a month, and considering how every branch seems to be going through an extreme pilot shortage, I'm wondering if I should shoot higher. 

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Am I being too cocky? Is putting up with the bureaucracy on the commissioned side not worth the extra money and prestige?

 

I would hate to tell my recruiter that I'm switching lanes, after already being accepted. But like I said, it's a 6 year commitment, plus 2 years of flight school. I don't want to be regretting not commissioning for the next 8 years. And having already put the packet together, I'm sure I could put together another packet for OCS in just a few months.

 

Side note, I'm not sure what  I would do after my 8 years. If I liked the military, I might stay in and retire. Or leave and fly on the civilian side. Or take the GI bill and go back to school. I love having options.

 

 

 

Nothing is better than saluting a non-rated 2nd Lt on the field and then jumping into a mechanical beast to dust off for Valhalla leaving said 2nd Lt. behind to finish some various type of paperwork assigned to him.

 

The rated 2nd Lt.s' and above are good people and we would salute them any day.

 

Also, how to you think the 40+ year old 1st Sergeant or Sergeant Major feels about saluting both a 22 year old WO1 fresh out of WOCS AND the 2nd Lt. fresh out of OCS?

 

If you have to ask if you are being too "prideful" about saluting the rank, maybe you should start asking yourself "does the Army need me?" instead of "do I need the Army?".

 

If you actually get accepted into the WOFT program, you are in for quite a rude awakening. TACs are going to love you.


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#9 Tradewinds

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 14:13

The pluses and minuses have been pretty well explained in the above posts so I'll add just a couple things.

 

The largest factor is that you will not be guaranteed the Aviation Branch out of OCS for Active Duty, the only chance at a guarantee of Aviation from OCS is to go National Guard Aviation. There is a chance that your OCS class may not even have any Aviation slots available when it comes time to Branch select, and you won'r know this until you are halfway through OCS. You could easily be branched Infantry, Transportation, Quartermaster, or any of the 16 branches the Army has to offer.

 

The thing to realize (which many new ROL's don't) is that if you commission into Aviation you are an Aviation Officer, notice I did not say Pilot. Sure, you will learn to fly and you will fly a fair amount in your first 3 years, but after that you will start to move up and out to different responsibilities. While your working in Aviation your primary responsibility won't be flying but will be in all aspects of Aviation...planning, training, administrative, and so on, thus the term "Aviation Officer" This is all work that needs to be done to keep the Aviation machine moving, it's just not what some think it is when they branch Aviation.

 

A commissioned Aviation officer can re-branch down the road, they are a commissioned officer first and an Aviation officer second so to speak. Back a while ago when the OH-58 was retired there were many RLO's that switched branches rather then stay Aviation and transition to a new aircraft. This opportunity was a bit smoother for RLO's.

 

If you want to fly and are not interested in the other aspects of Aviation then stay Warrant but even as a warrant you will have other responsibilities other then just flying.


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#10 akscott60

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 18:14

1. This job aint about the money. 

 

2. You will always be outranked by someone until your are the President. 


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#11 SBuzzkill

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 20:46

Thanks for clarifying that you're a white male.  It really helps me form a first impression of you.

 

Keep "shooting higher."  If you're looking for money, prestige, respect, and power go chase your dreams on Wall Street.  Did you actually read your post and think it would go over well?  


Edited by SBuzzkill, 15 January 2018 - 20:58.

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#12 rbussma

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 22:06

Not sure what you were looking to get out of posting this on here, but your post makes it sound like the only things motivating you to join Army Aviation are money and fame, both of which are pretty bad reasons to join the military as a whole. I'm sure you didn't mean to come off that way, but your post kind of does.

 

Not going to beat a dead horse because the point has already been driven home, but if I were you, I'd take a good look in the mirror and re-examine your motivations for serving, especially on the officer side.

 

That being said, the CO vs WO routes both have downsides, and doing a bit of research on each should paint a good picture as to which would better match what you are looking to get out of your time in the Army.



#13 Newby123

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 23:18

Eh... I wouldn't want to chance not getting aviation, unless you are cool with potentially being an officer in another branch -- that can include some pretty un-sexy parts of the military. You are absolutely right, in some respects career advancement for commissioned officers can potentially take you much further. It also gets very political, and rising through the ranks isn't as simple as just hanging on and being good at your job. 

 

As far as pride and rank go, a 2nd Lt outranking you shouldn't hurt your pride because they are a commissioned officer. As a Sergeant in the USMC I of course respected the rank, but any good officer will also respect the experience of those "junior" to them. Furthermore in the aviation community there seems to be a much more laid back attitude between everyone from what I've seen in meeting with various aviators as I start this process. I wouldn't expect a bunch of hardos measuring their worth off their collar. 

 

As far as what you can offer, simply having rank is not offering more. 100s of thousands of lower enlisted have offered more than many generals ever have. Simply go to any American military cemetery to see how this plays out. 

 

Have you looked into WO to CO routes? I know a retired major who made the jump from WO to CO. From what I understand you typically wouldn't jump from W3 to O1 for example, it may be to O2 or in some circumstances directly to O3. I'm sure some on here can comment.

 

Mike

Thanks for the tips Mike. I forgot to ask explicitly, but I guess I was wondering about the possibility of switching from WO to CO at some point in my (potential) career. I've been stalking this forum for a while and I haven't found anything about WO's switching to commissioned. Anyone else informed on this? I've only found CO's going Warrant. Maybe that says it all!

 

And thanks to all for the quick responses, they really do help. It especially helps from guys like METT-TC, who have experienced both sides. Weighing everything together, I think the WO route suits my personality more. At first, it seems like I'm "wasting" my college degree going WOFT, since OCS requires a degree. But considering all the variables, I see that's not true, and that my degree is likely the only thing that makes me competitive in WOFT.

 

I definitely wouldn't join the military for prestige or money, but I don't blame you all for thinking that. Serving my country and an exciting career as a pilot are definitely my two main motivators, but I supposed that could be said for everyone else on this forum as well. I probably do have some pride to lose at Basic, and hopefully I'll get the chance to lose it, haha

 

Both WOFT and OCS are amazing opportunities. I was pretty set on joining the military before I had heard of WOFT, and even before I had heard of OCS. I am extremely excited to think that I have a chance making it to Ft. Rucker. I'm just trying to collect informed opinions on different tracks, before I sign papers. Thanks again!



#14 Newby123

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 23:22

Thanks for clarifying that you're a white male.  It really helps me form a first impression of you.

  

I heard the only way to cash in on white male privilege, was to announce it to everyone you came in contact with  ;)



#15 DaveC

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 00:16

Have you looked into an Air Force UPT slot?

See the light, push the button, get the banana.


#16 mike0331

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 00:29

There are more ways to use a college degree than simply as a qualification to get somewhere. Sure, various degrees apply more or less to the real world, but hopefully you learned some stuff while in college you can apply to life... though I see you got a liberal arts degree so probably not ;)

Mike
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#17 StockTrader

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 06:26

 
Keep "shooting higher."  If you're looking for money, prestige, respect, and power go chase your dreams on Wall Street.  


Also go there if you want the life slowly sucked outta you. Trust me.
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#18 Gramps

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 21:53

Since you did well in the SIFT, you should score well on the Navy/Marine Corps/Coast Guard test since that's where it was derived from. The AFOQT is different, but you should score well on it, too. The TBAS is more like a video game, so if you're a gamer and/or have good hand-eye (and foot) coordination, you should be fine. I assume you want to fly helicopters since you're here. Here's what I've heard over the years regarding each branch, but my information might be dated:

Marine Corps: ~80% end up flying helicopters. Considering the C-12 is one of four options in the Army, your chances are almost the same in each. Expect some kind of non-flying tour as a second or third assignment, though. Age cutoff would be coming up soon for you, so you'd need to move fast.

Air Force: small % end up flying helicopters, most people want fixed wing. If you list helicopters #1 on your dream sheet and work hard, IPs and flight commanders can supposedly trade aircraft among classes and try to accommodate you. Age cutoff still a few years away for you.

Navy: small percentage end up flying helicopters, most people want fixed wing, but not really sure how likely it is to get what you want. Same age cutoff issue as Marine Corps.

#19 ByteFlighter

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:44

And just to add a counter weight to the paths listed above:

 

 

AirForce: The entire organization is built around aircraft and pilots. They have a somewhat higher level "Pilot Culture" than any other organization. SUPT, which is AF's helicopter training can be hard to get into sometimes, can be easy to get into sometimes. Depends on what old dog vacated a spot and/or your level of competetion against another cadet whom has their sights set on rotor wing.

 

Navy: You will be flying constantly from the beginning of flight training until the end of your 3rd to 4th years Time In Service. After that point, you will be flying nothing but a desk unless you are a Maverick level aviator. Also, the Navy's air frame selection is very hierarchical based on merit during training. The helicopter pilots tend to be the lowest rung to be picked as most of the higher achievers joined the Navy specifically because they watched Top Gun 462 times thus want go fast & Fixed wing. (We also have our own version of "Top Gun" for Helicopters, yet I only recommend watching it if you are in the mood for more of a comedy/sh*t film vs. a motivated retard-level of enthusiasm. I AM THE GREATEST!!!!)

 

Marines: The Marine Corps is a heavily Infantry focused organization. What this means is: You are a Marine first. You are a rifleman second. You are a Pilot third. Expect to attend rather long and tedious training prior to stepping foot anywhere near an Aircraft. You will also be expected to rotate with Infantry units as a Forward Air Controller at some point in your career over there(depending on what tempo of war/deployments the US decides to get herself into in the future). Also expect to be kicked out at the end of your serivce obligation. The Corps is very very very competitive when it comes to promotions. Having wings doesn't impact your "up n' out" boards as much as it does in other branches.

 

 

Again, this goes back to the Regular Line Officer vs. Warrant Officer dilemma. None of the other branches have an Aviator program quite like the Army's Flight Warrants (Navy tried it and failed back in '06). While we are planning our next flight & executing missions in the Air, most of our fellow rated buddies in other branches are sitting at a desk with shiny wings of gold pinned to their chest while gazing out the window and wishing they were in the sky.....



#20 mike0331

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:56

Does the Army not have its gunship pilots do rotations as FACs? The Army is no less a ground service than the USMC. If anything, you probably have waaaaay more guys in Army aviation with a background in combat arms than the USMC given the nature of the warrant program. 

 

Mike







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