Jump to content


Helicopter AcademyVOLO_VRHome200TigerTugsFrasca VRForum468
Photo
- - - - -

Sundance's new program for lowtimers,...kinda feels like they're leaving some of us out :(


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 29 August 2018 - 12:53

https://www.vertical...ent-initiative/

I get emails all the time from HEMS recruiters wanting me to work for them, but never anything from a company like this, whose new minimums I actually meet?

Its a screwie industry!

Edited by r22butters, 29 August 2018 - 12:53.

Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!

#2 Boatpix

Boatpix

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VIP Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 271 posts

Posted 29 August 2018 - 14:05

They are a little vague on those minimum.  Insurance companies are the ones that really set minimums. 


Tom McDermott, manager
HelicopterAcademy.com/BOATPIX


#3 takefootoff

takefootoff

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 294 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 August 2018 - 21:02

A ploy to get fresh money?

Ever think your posts and experience is affecting the big wigs?

#4 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 29 August 2018 - 21:18

They couldn't care less.
Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!

#5 Wally

Wally

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,639 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jefferson, GA
  • Interests:Reading's high on the list.
  • Company working for:none

Posted 30 August 2018 - 10:56

The program sounds like a good idea, but there's a world of difference between having a good idea and making it work well. The end employer's participatiom in the training process should be a good idea, as would be the student's knowledge that at the very least a credible employment interview opportunity awaits successful completion.

There are some issues between th starting point and the maximally qualified finished product, an HEMS pilot, in the current regulatory environment and the application of it in the industry. Nothing in any mainstream training syllabus that I've seen provides useful skills in evaluation of a scenario, usefully shapes the decision process, or the psychological profile to work in the HEMS industry. Further, the process described is going to result in an HEMS pilot with very little scope of experience.

I am glad to see the first steps in the industry towards participating in the supply of pilots. An analogy: this is a move from hunter-gatherer towards integrated supply.

Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#6 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 30 August 2018 - 13:21

If the ultimate goal here is a HEMS pilot, then perhaps instead of sending out all these emails blindly hunting for pilots (I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one getting them) they could just ask us if we want to apply for a HEMS mentorship! I mean I would still say, "thanks for the offer, but I look terrible with helmet hair", but I'm sure there are plenty of existing lowtimers who would jump at the chance?

They don't need to start with another school "hook", they could just begin with pilots who already meet 135 minimums!

I'm just wondering how many wanabees will get the funds to go to these "select" schools, hoping to be "selected", then hoping once again to be "the chosen one" after yet another interview, and not make it in?

,...I mean you don't even get "evaluated" to enter the program until after you get your cpl,...with that "select" school of course!

It seems like a good idea, but smells kinda funny just the same.

You want to make pograms like this not look like just another flight school scam, make them available to ALL pilots regardless of which school they attended!

Edited by r22butters, 30 August 2018 - 13:29.

Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!

#7 Hand_Grenade_Pilot

Hand_Grenade_Pilot

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Company working for:GoM

Posted 30 August 2018 - 16:37

Partnering with flight schools to insure a stable supply of pilots makes sense for a tour operator; it's a very easy job and a great way for a new pilot to gain experience and transition into commercial flying.

 

It will be a disaster for HEMS operators. Rather than paying competitive salaries to recruit highly qualified pilots, they keep finding ways to lower the bar further and further. Paying $65k for 2,000 hour pilots who have done nothing but flight instruction, tours, or dual pilot in a blackhawk is idiotic. And based off of the job listings I'm seeing (and this article) it's only going to get worse.

 

HEMS is a job you do at the end of your career, not the start. But sadly, I have seen numerous pilots hop over to that sector who haven't even figured out the fundamentals of real world flying. 

 

 


  • Wally likes this
Aviation is a cruel mistress. When she's not taking your money, she's coming up with creative ways to kill you.

#8 Kliss

Kliss

    Student Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts

Posted 30 August 2018 - 18:11

In your opinion what should be the typical pilot progression through a career? 

 

I agree that HEMS should be towards the end of a career but I can also understand why pilots gravitate towards it so quickly.



#9 takefootoff

takefootoff

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 294 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 August 2018 - 19:54

They couldn't care less.



Dammit Butters, I'm starting to not like your attitude!

#10 takefootoff

takefootoff

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 294 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 August 2018 - 20:08

Partnering with flight schools to insure a stable supply of pilots makes sense for a tour operator; it's a very easy job and a great way for a new pilot to gain experience and transition into commercial flying.
 
It will be a disaster for HEMS operators. Rather than paying competitive salaries to recruit highly qualified pilots, they keep finding ways to lower the bar further and further. Paying $65k for 2,000 hour pilots who have done nothing but flight instruction, tours, or dual pilot in a blackhawk is idiotic. And based off of the job listings I'm seeing (and this article) it's only going to get worse.

HEMS is a job you do at the end of your career, not the start. But sadly, I have seen numerous pilots hop over to that sector who haven't even figured out the fundamentals of real world flying.

Yessir.

A wise man once told me..."you bring experience to HEMS, you should not (look to) get experience from HEMS"

Edited by takefootoff, 30 August 2018 - 20:09.

  • Wally likes this

#11 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 30 August 2018 - 21:44

Dammit Butters, I'm starting to not like your attitude!

Sorry,

What I meant to say was, the story of butters has been a major topic at all helicopter seminars, and his story has not only brought light to the previously ignored plight of the lowtimer, but every industry big wig has made it his mission to employ all the butters of the world,...and for a liveable wage!

,...AND EVERY HELISLAVE WILL GET THAT WELL DESERVED LUNCH BREAK!!!

How's that? :D
  • takefootoff likes this
Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!

#12 Wally

Wally

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,639 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jefferson, GA
  • Interests:Reading's high on the list.
  • Company working for:none

Posted 31 August 2018 - 09:30

If the ultimate goal here is a HEMS pilot, then perhaps instead of sending out all these emails blindly hunting for pilots (I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one getting them) they could just ask us if we want to apply for a HEMS mentorship! I mean I would still say, "thanks for the offer, but I look terrible with helmet hair", but I'm sure there are plenty of existing lowtimers who would jump at the chance?

They don't need to start with another school "hook", they could just begin with pilots who already meet 135 minimums!

I'm just wondering how many wanabees will get the funds to go to these "select" schools, hoping to be "selected", then hoping once again to be "the chosen one" after yet another interview, and not make it in?

,...I mean you don't even get "evaluated" to enter the program until after you get your cpl,...with that "select" school of course!

It seems like a good idea, but smells kinda funny just the same.

You want to make pograms like this not look like just another flight school scam, make them available to ALL pilots regardless of which school they attended!

 

Butters, are you unhappy because you're not part of this 'program' or do you think the program is not what it presents as being?  


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#13 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 31 August 2018 - 10:50

Butters, are you unhappy because you're not part of this 'program' or do you think the program is not what it presents as being?


I'm skeptical because they would rather focus on newbies than existing struggling lowtimers, who I'm sure could easily handle flying tours for Sundance at 135 minimums!

Like I said, if it wasn't limited to only the "special" ones who not only go to the "right" school but are the "chosen ones" from that school, then I'd be more optimistic that this is not just another attempt at getting bodies in the door at said school!

,...and Wally, how can I be unhappy, its free fry Friday! :D
Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!

#14 Hand_Grenade_Pilot

Hand_Grenade_Pilot

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Company working for:GoM

Posted 31 August 2018 - 11:41

In your opinion what should be the typical pilot progression through a career? 
 
I agree that HEMS should be towards the end of a career but I can also understand why pilots gravitate towards it so quickly.

IMO, there is no perfect career track. All that matters is having a diverse background with many years of experience doing different operations.

Generally speaking, CFIs have excellent academic knowledge. Ag/utility Pilots have excellent stick & pedal skills. Military pilots are highly proficient at flying IFR and operating complex, multi-crew aircraft. ENG pilots fly over busy cities and are comfortable in complex/busy airspace. Etc, etc...

The more a pilot has done, the better off they are. That applies to flying in different regions and climates as well, not just different jobs.

But when a pilot essentially ends their career progression after only a few years, they are setting themselves up for failure.
  • Kliss likes this
Aviation is a cruel mistress. When she's not taking your money, she's coming up with creative ways to kill you.

#15 Mikemv

Mikemv

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 864 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Naples, Florida
  • Interests:Helicopter Aviation for the last 50+ yrs
  • Company working for:HelicopterSBT, Unmanned Safety Institute

Posted 31 August 2018 - 14:31

https://www.vertical...icopter-pilots/

 

There are a few industry individuals that have shared their ideas on this and worked hard to take them forward.

 

I have collaborated with them in the past as we worked on other initiatives.

 

Aviation Futures has pilots currently proving the value of the ideas to provide for pilots.



#16 Azhigher

Azhigher

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 522 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 August 2018 - 14:55

I'm skeptical because they would rather focus on newbies than existing struggling lowtimers, who I'm sure could easily handle flying tours for Sundance at 135 minimums!

 

LOL, I think the reason they are going after newbies is because they want to attract talent, not people with poor work ethic and sour attitudes who want to fly, but only if it works out just perfectly for them. 


  • mudkow60 likes this

#17 Wally

Wally

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,639 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jefferson, GA
  • Interests:Reading's high on the list.
  • Company working for:none

Posted 31 August 2018 - 15:38

I'm skeptical because they would rather focus on newbies than existing struggling lowtimers, who I'm sure could easily handle flying tours for Sundance at 135 minimums!

Like I said, if it wasn't limited to only the "special" ones who not only go to the "right" school but are the "chosen ones" from that school, then I'd be more optimistic that this is not just another attempt at getting bodies in the door at said school!

,...and Wally, how can I be unhappy, its free fry Friday! :D

 

I believe I've heard you complain that the industry doesn't develop new pilots?  This is a start, is it not?  The world changes.

 

I. Am. Trying. Not. To. Remark. On. "Free fry Friday".  And. Working. Through. Lunch. Because. The. Work. One. Was Hired. For. Needs. Doing.....


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#18 nightsta1ker

nightsta1ker

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 792 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vegas, Baby!

Posted 31 August 2018 - 17:15

I'm kinda confused about the expected progression here.  What kind of work prepares you for EMS?  Flying tours and the gulf doesn't.  Flying Utility maybe has some parallels but as far as making weather decisions and flying at night with NVG's etc, not really.  I would say the only thing that really prepares you for EMS is flying EMS.  Not even the military seems to prepare you for the EMS industry (sure you may have loads of goggle time but how much time do you have flying as a solo PIC coming out of the military?  Chances are that's a big fat zero).  How do you get that experience without doing it?  Also, EMS companies cannot keep staffed right now.  And I don't think its a matter of not paying well enough (although I certainly wish they would pay better).  I can't imagine that there is a load of qualified pilots out there waiting for an EMS operator to start paying what they are willing to work for.  There just aren't enough "qualified" pilots anymore.  There's a shortage.  But that shortage is really only a matter of perspective.  I think there are plenty of qualified pilots capable of doing EMS.  And they aren't in the twilight of their careers either.  Many of them just don't meet all of the requirements to get the jobs.

 

I went into EMS right out of tours with a little less than 3000 hours TT (1500 Turbine).  EMS is pretty straight forward with good training and a company that doesn't push you to take flights.  You have to have your head on straight and be thorough though.  And in my short time as an EMS pilot, I can say that the best ones I know are coming from the tour industry, while a lot of the old, high time guys are lazy and barely competent. That's a personal anecdote, so mileage may vary, not available in all states, yada yada.  I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  I have just found that there are lots of low to mid time pilots that definitely have what it takes to be safe and successful EMS pilots, and there is a need for them so companies cannot afford to be too picky about high time guys. 

 

My biggest gripe with this industry is and always has been that every operator out there wants turn-key pilots who have experience doing that particular job.  No one wants to have to invest in their people, and the ones that do make the pilot "earn it" by paying a **** wage while they get the experience they need to move on to a better paying operator.  I am hoping the current trends in staffing force some change, but I would be willing to bet that the industry will simply shrink before that happens. 



#19 Wally

Wally

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,639 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jefferson, GA
  • Interests:Reading's high on the list.
  • Company working for:none

Posted 31 August 2018 - 18:27

I went into EMS right out of tours with a little less than 3000 hours TT (1500 Turbine).  EMS is pretty straight forward with good training and a company that doesn't push you to take flights.  You have to have your head on straight and be thorough though.

 

Exactly.  Attitude!

I don't remember seeing any Gulf guys in my last 10 years in HEMS. I left the GoM 25 years ago, when 'take a look' was the rule.  In that, I think the Gulf made some pretty good HEMS pilots- I have been pretty deep in weather, sufficient to have an idea what I would accept and what I could accept without 'working too hard'.  I also got very, very used to the idea of aborting, stopping short, etc.  No way was I busting minimums- as far as I was concerned, my HEMS company told me to take it easy, so I did.  I went if I could do it legal, period.

The program hired a lot of local talent, some very good, some not so much.  The best hire in that period was an ex-tour guy, but he was exceptional because that's what he was- professional, driven to do the job.

 

HEMS is a job you bring skill and experience to because you're not going to fly enough to build on that.


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#20 r22butters

r22butters

    VR Veteran Poster

  • VR Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,024 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pluto,...at least until the next election :) ,...damn the wifi here is unbelievable!
  • Interests:Admiring the city lights and coastal sunsets from a thousand feet,...when I have the dough. :)

    ,...oh' yeah, and boobs!
    😕+🍟+🚁+🌃=☺
    .
  • Company working for:Just a happy casual renter! :)

Posted 31 August 2018 - 21:31

 
I. Am. Trying. Not. To. Remark. On. "Free fry Friday".  And. Working. Through. Lunch. Because. The. Work. One. Was Hired. For. Needs. Doing.....


Yeah. You're. Right. Work. That. Helislave. All. Day. Long, 'Cause. No. Work. Needs. To. Get. Done. More. Than. Giving. Rides. To. People. On. Vacation.

,...man talking like that is exhausting, I need break!
Side boob is just so awesome,...yes it is!




2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users



Genesys VR Forum 200MaunaLoaVRHome200NFCVRForum200HomeAMTC 2018LORD_VRHome200Spectrum_VRHome200PrecisionVRForumHome200BE_VRHome200HeliHelmets-VR Home