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DUI and WOFT

WOFT Aviation DUI SIFT

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#1 MurikanHrvati

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:05

Good Morning,

 

    Longtime lurker here.  Thanks for all you do on this forum.  I have a hypothetical question:  What are the chances of a candidate being successful for WOFT with a prior DUI (civilian)? DUI in 2017, off probation early in 2019 and eligible to enlist.  Candidate has strong packet and made a mistake where record was clean prior to event.    FAA Com. Ratings in Fixed-wing.  Candidate went through FAA HIMS program:

 

1.  30 day inpatient rehab

2.  Outpatient intensive care

3.  90 AA meetings in 90 days

4.  HIMS AME Psychiatric Evaluation

5.  Significant Aftercare which will continue for next 3-5 years.

6.  Volunteered with MADD.

 

Cleared for first class medical.  

Strong  military reference letters with Bachelor's Degree.

SIFT 70 but would like to retake for higher.

Aced physical fitness test.

 

Waiver possible for active duty or reserve component?  

 

Thanks in advance.

 



#2 XIIGage

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 16:24

I may not be well equipped to answer your question, but I can offer a little insight based on what I have learned from this forum and through my process.

 

My understanding is even if you were already an AD aviator with years (and millions of dollars) in training complete, a DUI will end your career on the spot.

 

It may be possible to get a waiver, and it doesn't hurt to try, but unless they are really hurting for pilots and he can blow the other candidates out of the water, I wouldn't think it would be likely.

 

As for the SIFT, you can't retake it once it is passed, but a 70 is a great score, don't worry about that.

 

Again, I could be completely wrong, but I know the Army really doesn't like DUIs.


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#3 ByteFlighter

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 16:30

How have you already taken the SIFT? Have you started the process?

 

To be blunt, you won't ever fly in the military with a prior DUI that recent.

 

You probably have a 0.01% chance a Chief on the board would allow your packet through, that is if you make it past the battalion board, waiver and MEPS screening first.

 

Also, you'd have a huge chance of being denied a security clearance over a DUI that recent - even with the HIMS stuff...

 

Sucks man but it is what it is.


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#4 StockTrader

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 17:13

If you took the sift and got a 70, thats your score. The DUI paired with inpatient rehab has you dead in the water.
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#5 MurikanHrvati

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 17:54

If you took the sift and got a 70, thats your score. The DUI paired with inpatient rehab has you dead in the water.

Why would the compulsory FAA inpatient 30 day adversely affect his chances?  We knew a couple marine pilots who went through the HIMS program solely for IFS (I think it's called) where they required a FAA third class medical for civilian flight training prior to their military flight training.  They had gone through the program during their screw ups in delayed entry.  We do know of people who have been accepted with DUI's into the WOFT program but I wanted to be more versed in the specifics and percentages.  The length of time from the DUI to packet would be of concern.

I do need to make a correction though.  He's planning on pursuing street to seat with the NG.  Apparently it's an option in our state despite thinking he would have had to go enlisted prior.  Even if that was the case I don't think he would have an issue as long as he made it before the cutoff age.

 

I do appreciate all the input.  Hopefully he can defy the odds.



#6 Pluto

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 18:55

Good Morning,

 

    Longtime lurker here.  Thanks for all you do on this forum.  I have a hypothetical question:  What are the chances of a candidate being successful for WOFT with a prior DUI (civilian)? DUI in 2017, off probation early in 2019 and eligible to enlist.  Candidate has strong packet and made a mistake where record was clean prior to event.    FAA Com. Ratings in Fixed-wing.  Candidate went through FAA HIMS program:

 

1.  30 day inpatient rehab

2.  Outpatient intensive care

3.  90 AA meetings in 90 days

4.  HIMS AME Psychiatric Evaluation

5.  Significant Aftercare which will continue for next 3-5 years.

6.  Volunteered with MADD.

 

Cleared for first class medical.  

Strong  military reference letters with Bachelor's Degree.

SIFT 70 but would like to retake for higher.

Aced physical fitness test.

 

Waiver possible for active duty or reserve component?  

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

If you join from inside the army then you don't need a waiver. You can join the guard and then go active duty if they need it. In my opinion it is immoral to discriminate based on criminal behavior in the past. Because it's a hasty generalization. Just because somebody did "A" that does not mean they will do "B". There are simply to many unknown factors to conclude if these applicants will divulge the information they are supposed to be entrusted with.

 

I presume it's because the secretary of the army is being pressured by various legal proponents to enforce these laws. This is another illogical fallacy. Known as the "band wagon" fallacy.

 

So, just play the cards you where dealt. Nobody can be a national guard pilot unless you are an NCO anyways. Because nobody can get through it any more. It's dumb, now all these applicants who are perfect fine get sent away. It's not a perfect world, it's not Jannah. They should be making the morally centered decision in this case. And letting you fly.


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#7 Tradewinds

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 19:03

I think the biggest issue is that the DUI was so recent, while he'll be off probation in 2019 doesn't help either. Add to that the "Significant Aftercare" for 3 to 5 years, I would imagine his chances of even getting to the board would be close to Lottery odds.


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#8 Thedude

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 19:07

I’d say chances are slim to none, but the chance of selection is zero if he doesn’t try. A recent DUI would probably be an instant non-select for every board member regardless of how strong the rest of the packet is.
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#9 Mtannehill517

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 20:53

 
If you join from inside the army then you don't need a waiver. You can join the guard and then go active duty if they need it. In my opinion it is immoral to discriminate based on criminal behavior in the past. Because it's a hasty generalization. Just because somebody did "A" that does not mean they will do "B". There are simply to many unknown factors to conclude if these applicants will divulge the information they are supposed to be entrusted with.
 
I presume it's because the secretary of the army is being pressured by various legal proponents to enforce these laws. This is another illogical fallacy. Known as the "band wagon" fallacy.
 
So, just play the cards you where dealt. Nobody can be a national guard pilot unless you are an NCO anyways. Because nobody can get through it any more. It's dumb, now all these applicants who are perfect fine get sent away. It's not a perfect world, it's not Jannah. They should be making the morally centered decision in this case. And letting you fly.

You are so wrong with this it physically hurts. Even if he went active duty then applied, he would still need a waiver for anything he did in his life that may or may not be on his judicial record.
Do your research before you post and give false hope.
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#10 Pluto

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 22:37

Your statement is like a steer. You have a point here, a point there, and all this bull in between.

If you goto the WOCS web site, then on the ETP/moral character waiver page. In bold print It says somthing along the lines of you can fly without a waiver if you are prior service. And any MOS may apply, So go pick up an M4A1 and help us defend with that, until you get picked for WOFT to fly the airframe you want.
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#11 zack.colorado

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 23:03

Worst they can do is say no.
Some states have only 1 or 2 WOFT applicants per quarter, which may give him the best chance to have his packet looked at as more than just a DUI. This may mean applying to more than one state and possibly multiple times.
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#12 XIIGage

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 23:12

Your statement is like a steer. You have a point here, a point there, and all this bull in between.

If you goto the WOCS web site, then on the ETP/moral character waiver page. In bold print It says somthing along the lines of you can fly without a waiver if you are prior service. And any MOS may apply, So go pick up an M4A1 and help us defend with that, until you get picked for WOFT to fly the airframe you want.


Really? According to USAREC here: http://www.usarec.ar...ant/index.shtml

Moral waivers are required for all applicants. And either way you would still need a waiver to enlist because a DUI is a disqualifier for all branches.

Do you just troll this board all day for fun or will you actually post useful information at some point?
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#13 MurikanHrvati

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 03:05

I think the biggest issue is that the DUI was so recent, while he'll be off probation in 2019 doesn't help either. Add to that the "Significant Aftercare" for 3 to 5 years, I would imagine his chances of even getting to the board would be close to Lottery odds.

 

"significant aftercare" is not really an extensive and rigorous external program and again, this HIMS program is unique only for the FAA so if he were to go military, whether enlisted guard or street to seat in either guard, reserve, or AD, he wouldn't need to do anything that requires time away from his duties.  As someone said, if the 30 day inpatient would leave him "dead in the water", he could simply just continue doing what he does: volunteer extensively, work three jobs, maybe take a college class, attend AA, etc...  and use that to enlist in NG or AD Army and then go WOFT from there.   Time would then be the primary obstacle.  All good input.  Hopefully he'll overcome the odds.



#14 MurikanHrvati

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 03:12

I'll keep you posted on my cousin's progress and if there's a route, we'll find it and make it in.  It will be interesting to see what happens.  Uphill battle for sure.



#15 Captainstank056

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 07:21

Do you just troll this board all day for fun or will you actually post useful information at some point?


Yeah man, this is literally all this dude does. He trolls helicopter forum threads and somehow enjoys it.

#16 Pluto

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 09:17

Really? According to USAREC here: http://www.usarec.ar...ant/index.shtml

Moral waivers are required for all applicants. And either way you would still need a waiver to enlist because a DUI is a disqualifier for all branches.

Do you just troll this board all day for fun or will you actually post useful information at some point?

 

It says it right here: http://www.usarec.ar...ninfo_mos.shtml

 

Sense it's implying that you are entering in from another MOS on this list. You can conclude from the bold title, That waivers are not needed from those with proffered qualifications. Sense, 153A is available to any applicant without any feeder MOS. You should be just fine picking up an M4A1 Carbine. That's what we want to see. I'm thinking about doing it, because it takes 2 years to get through WOFT. That's about $65,000 in rental income I'm missing out on. Plus I can goto Harvard if I do that first.

 

This is known as the "component/division" logical fallacy. It's where they presume that just because one component of something has to be applied to all of it. Usually resulting in a negative emotional response.

 

Use your brain, these guys are just unable to understand the whole picture. Even though it's not that difficult to understand. This is called the: "texas sharp shooter" logical fallacy. It's where they just cherry pick data clusters to suit an argument.

 

Anyways, just change your attitude towards it, and you will see that the army does a good job at looking after there own. Better than any other branch might I add. 



#17 XIIGage

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 10:42

 

It says it right here: http://www.usarec.ar...ninfo_mos.shtml

 

Sense it's implying that you are entering in from another MOS on this list. You can conclude from the bold title, That waivers are not needed from those with proffered qualifications. Sense, 153A is available to any applicant without any feeder MOS. You should be just fine picking up an M4A1 Carbine. That's what we want to see. I'm thinking about doing it, because it takes 2 years to get through WOFT. That's about $65,000 in rental income I'm missing out on. Plus I can goto Harvard if I do that first.

 

This is known as the "component/division" logical fallacy. It's where they presume that just because one component of something has to be applied to all of it. Usually resulting in a negative emotional response.

 

Use your brain, these guys are just unable to understand the whole picture. Even though it's not that difficult to understand. This is called the: "texas sharp shooter" logical fallacy. It's where they just cherry pick data clusters to suit an argument.

 

Anyways, just change your attitude towards it, and you will see that the army does a good job at looking after there own. Better than any other branch might I add. 

 

 

Did you not read the paragraph directly before the bold sentence? It says "Please remember, you must meet the MINIMUM prerequisites for the Warrant Officer MOS for which you will apply, or you must request a prerequisite waiver."

 

So, the bold sentence means if you have the preferred qualifications for that MOS, then you do not need to submit a prerequisite waiver... It does NOT mean you are exempt from all waivers. Do you really think they would let a 40 year old AD guy apply to woft without a waiver? Or someone that has 20/200 uncorrectable vision? Or someone with multiple (or even one) DUI?

 

Come one man, use your brain. Please stop spreading false information that you obviously have no idea about.



#18 MurikanHrvati

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 11:09

I think it's easy enough to come to the conclusion that whether you go enlisted, warrant, or officer, you're going to need a waiver initially.  Now, if you're already AD, have a clearance and have obviously been cleared with a waiver, why would you need to go through a waiver process twice?  It would seem redundant but, it is the military.  It could potentially be something they would look at as a different entity within the same organization e.g. your waiver would be reviewed by one part of the Army for enlisted and when it came time to go WOFT, your waiver would have to be reviewed by a completely different org. within the Army -- lack of appropriate terminology aside. 

 

The only viable thing would be for someone AD to reach out on this thread who had a waiver and is applying or applied for WOFT.

 

Now if I have it right, doesn't the NG have their own boards up until the final review, or is it within the guard for the entirety?  I know the Guard is Army but I also know they choose their own pilots and if I remember correctly, they have their own process and boards for sending candidates to flight training.

 

Thanks again and please keep the weaponized autism to a minimum  :D



#19 Pluto

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 11:25

 

 

Did you not read the paragraph directly before the bold sentence? It says "Please remember, you must meet the MINIMUM prerequisites for the Warrant Officer MOS for which you will apply, or you must request a prerequisite waiver."

 

So, the bold sentence means if you have the preferred qualifications for that MOS, then you do not need to submit a prerequisite waiver... It does NOT mean you are exempt from all waivers. Do you really think they would let a 40 year old AD guy apply to woft without a waiver? Or someone that has 20/200 uncorrectable vision? Or someone with multiple (or even one) DUI?

 

Come one man, use your brain. Please stop spreading false information that you obviously have no idea about.

 

I can tell you failed your paragraph comprehension test. It's the connotation of: "you don't need a waiver to fly" that is the topic. The annotation is not the topic. Yet, your whole argument was based off the annotation. So I will dismiss that argument.

 

If you enlist you can likely fly as an NCO(provided you fulfill those requirements). Now I will put the annotations in bold lettering to prevent any further confusion. You will likely get a moral charactor waiver if you are prior service. IMO it's Because that's a good thing that you did for the country. And the people you work with can vouch for you. Plus you did not get kicked out during that whole time. So you should be just fine.

 

So IMO you should pick up a gun. Because we need it, Good luck soldier.


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#20 Thedude

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 11:26

Even if youre already enlisted, whether active duty, guard or reserve and had waivers for initial enlistment you will still need waivers for your warrant packet.

For Pluto - you cannot fly as a pilot in the Army as a NCO. You can ride as a crew chief on some aircraft but you will not be a pilot manipulating controls.
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