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Helicopter Upgrade


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#41 MLH

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 16:53

The Robinson is only that cheap of you fly 200 hr/yr. I will be at 100 so double those costs.

 

I've owned two R44's. The last one was flown purely for hobby 50 - 75 hrs/yr. Hourly cost not including the hangar was $500.  The first was a leaseback and a money maker. 


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#42 adam32

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 16:40

 

 

Okay. How?

 

How can anyone prove she's not an essential crew member?



#43 helonorth

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 18:58

 

How can anyone prove she's not an essential crew member?

 

 

It would be the other way around. You would have to prove she was an essential crew member. And you couldn't. 



#44 Eric Hunt

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 23:07

Easy. You are looking for a missing black dog, and need her to sit on the left/right/front seat to help look. Essential crew. Try to prove otherwise.


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#45 adam32

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:50

 

 

It would be the other way around. You would have to prove she was an essential crew member. And you couldn't. 

 

She's reading the chart and watching the GPS.

 

Easy. 

 

And NO ONE would ever even question it anyway. 



#46 Wally

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:00

 

She's reading the chart and watching the GPS.

 

Easy. 

 

And NO ONE would ever even question it anyway. 

 

What about the insurance company if and when something goes sideways?  The ability to drop half a million on a toy implies a very worthwhile target for a lawsuit.


Just a pilot (retired, so I have a LOT of time)...


#47 iChris

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 13:15

I appreciate the input.   $500,000 is the budget.  My problem with the R44 is that the operating expenses get astronomical if it is just a toy.  I will fly no more than 100 hrs/yr.  I have heard that they are comfortable.

 

You're right about the R44. If you own it for a full 12 year cycle, you need to fly it a couple hundred hours per year to keep the hourly cost from skyrocketing.

 

Cherminator I am discovering exactly what you state. I keep coming back to the Enstrom. The only calendar limited parts are that TT straps (identical to the one on the 206). A transmission exchange is $21,000, t/r gearbox $7000. Blades are lesss than $50,000 for 3 (and on condition) vs $125,000 for the 206. The list goes on.

 

If you’re intent is only private use, non-compensation or hire, under Part 91, you can fly the R44 past 12 years. We cover this topic back in 2011. The only calendar limited parts, under § 91, are the main and tail rotor blades.

 

To continue operation after the 12yr. mark you must compile with The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness section in the R44, maintenance manual, titled Airworthiness Limitations, which is segregated and clearly distinguishable from the rest of the document. 

 

The must do items are covered in that section of the manuals. Moreover, it depends on who said, “you must”. Did Lycoming say you must? Did Robinson Helicopters say you must? Or did the FAA say you must. The FAA’s “Must” is the one that counts.

 

The R44 maintenance manual Airworthiness Limitations are in Section 3 on page 3.9. Page 3.9 is FAA approved and sets forth each mandatory (must do) replacement times, structural inspection intervals, and related structural inspections. Things like calendar engine overhaul periods were not included in those airworthiness limitations under § 91. However, engine ADs still apply.

 

As long as the owner complies with section 3 (page 3.9) in the R44 maintenance manual, the aircraft and engine can be maintained under FAR 91.409a, 43.15c, and Appendix D to Part 43 in an airworthy condition. 

 

To fully understand you may need to read the following posts and the supporting documentation.

 

R22 Airworthiness past 12 years. (Posted 15 October 2011)

MacMillan- (2011) Legal Interpretation(PDF)

R44 Airworthiness Limitations Life-Limited Components

FAA Order 8620.2A - Applicability and Enforcement of Manufacturer’s Data

 

Specific Part 91 operations for compensation or hire are governed by the inspection requirements found in § 91.409[b], which do not require you to comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenances.

 

 Part 135 operations for compensation or hire are governed by the inspection requirements found in §135.421, which requires you comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenance.

 

CLICK PHOTO TO ENLARGE


j0MKgui.png

 

Lycoming Engine Hour & Calendar Period TBO


Edited by iChris, 28 December 2018 - 19:12.

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Regards,

Chris

#48 Discap

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 16:30

IChris thanks for the analysis.

If you have a minute would you opine on my thread on TT straps

Bill

Still Learning


#49 adam32

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 17:34

 
What about the insurance company if and when something goes sideways?  The ability to drop half a million on a toy implies a very worthwhile target for a lawsuit.

Self insure like most private owners do.

And besides, they would have to prove what an essential crew member is...and as far as I know, there is not an interpretation as of yet.

The insurance companies will royally SCREW you over no matter what category the helicopter is registered in.

Edited by adam32, 28 December 2018 - 17:35.

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#50 500E

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 13:02

We have a customer who flies with a ground handler


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Fly the dream fly 500

#51 helonorth

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 13:01

Self insure like most private owners do.

 

 

 

I think self insurance means no insurance. 



#52 adam32

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 15:09

 

 

I think self insurance means no insurance. 

 

Set up an LLC, register the helicopter to it. Get a liability only policy and rock on.


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#53 helonorth

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 16:01

 

Set up an LLC, register the helicopter to it. Get a liability only policy and rock on.

 

 

In other words, if you crash the helicopter, you eat the loss and rock on.


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#54 adam32

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 17:18

 

 

In other words, if you crash the helicopter, you eat the loss and rock on.

 

Yup.

 

Because a private/personal pilot with a turbine and hull insurance will make even a rich man gawk at the cost...IF they will even insure him to begin with. 

 

I would venture to guess around $6,000-8,000 a month for a hull/liability policy.


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#55 helonorth

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 22:03

Well I googled "how much does it cost to insure a helicopter" and sure enough, the figure that came up the most was around 10% of hull value plus 1%. So I got out my calculator and came up with 11%. So on a half million dollar helicopter, you're looking at around $60,000 a year, just on insurance! Now if you didn't insure it, in 8 years you will be able to buy another half million dollar helicopter with all the money you saved. Of course, if at any point you crash it, you will probably be out much, if not all, of the 500 large. 

 

I'm guessing with hangar space, fuel and maintenance, you would easily top a 100 grand a year to fly a small turbine...a 110 knot, 5 place aircraft you can really only fit 4 people in. What a deal! When engine sections come due or you burn it up, add another 20 to 30 thousand a year. Still want to buy a helicopter? As I said before, this game is for really rich guys, not just your average millionaire.

 

Buy a Bonanza, be happy and have something you can actually use. And if you don't use it, it will only cost you about one tenth of what the helicopter would. And then you won't feel so bad when it just sits neglected in the hangar... or the marina... or the garage, like all the other expensive toys big kids buy and get bored with very quickly. I know, I've been there. Fortunately, I never had enough money to buy a helicopter.


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#56 Jaybee

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 11:21

Yea, I'd buy a mid-time R44 for 200k-ish and have fun. With 100k put aside for insurance/maintenance put the other 200k into a CD or money market or something for a rainy day.


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"In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks." — Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900. 
 
"The foot rests have a profound impact on the outcome of today's flight ending safely" - My flight instructor.

#57 adam32

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:36

Well I googled "how much does it cost to insure a helicopter" and sure enough, the figure that came up the most was around 10% of hull value plus 1%. So I got out my calculator and came up with 11%. So on a half million dollar helicopter, you're looking at around $60,000 a year, just on insurance! Now if you didn't insure it, in 8 years you will be able to buy another half million dollar helicopter with all the money you saved. Of course, if at any point you crash it, you will probably be out much, if not all, of the 500 large. 

 

 

That's assuming you meet their Open Pilot policy minimums...most likely the OP doesn't so you'll have to factor in Bell Factory Training (if he buys a Bell) or a CFI for a number of hours until the insurance will let him go free...plus another % or two for their peace of mind.

 

The last 212 I had a quote on for 135 work with high time carded pilots was $120,000 a year. 


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#58 cherminator

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 13:47

I paid $29,000. last year for $1 million hull and $5 million liability for my R66.


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#59 500E

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:50

https://www.ainonlin....s-could-double

 

Our 500 was a fair bit less than that for hull insurance £8k , but with the above + the crazy prices for parts now glad we sold it.

Still miss our own machine but there is a limit to toy price, the manufacturers are gouging your wallet, we ordered 4 nuts for a  customer at $60 each !!! 5/16


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Fly the dream fly 500

#60 adam32

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:44

I paid $29,000. last year for $1 million hull and $5 million liability for my R66.

 

That's not tooooooo bad at all.






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