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Hours to get a fixed-wing add-on?


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#1 svtcobra66

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 10:46

I have my helicopter ppl and instrument rating, and I can't seem to find how many airplane hours I would need to get my airplane private. Anyone happen to know? I thought it was 20 but I can't find it in the FARs, just says 40 total time.
Chris

#2 West Coaster

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 11:42

Yeah, that seems to be the way it's done. If you have a heli license of any kind you still have to do the full hours for any F/W license. Pretty lame seeing as how a F/W pilot can get a heli license add-on in less time. Heck, a heli pilot getting a F/W add-on should legally be able to do it in 10-15 hours max. Both follow the same rules and regulations, and let's face it... flying a Cessna isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world.

How can you tell that the FAA and TC are run by fixed-wing bureaucrats! :lol:

#3 svtcobra66

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 13:15

Yeah, that seems to be the way it's done. If you have a heli license of any kind you still have to do the full hours for any F/W license. Pretty lame seeing as how a F/W pilot can get a heli license add-on in less time. Heck, a heli pilot getting a F/W add-on should legally be able to do it in 10-15 hours max. Both follow the same rules and regulations, and let's face it... flying a Cessna isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world.

How can you tell that the FAA and TC are run by fixed-wing bureaucrats! :lol:


But it just says 40 hours of flight time, not fixed-wing flight time, thats what seems odd. Same with getting your heli rating, it says 40 hours flight time (not 40 hours helicopter). So where is it written the minimum hours of powered airplane or helicopter for the addon.

#4 lockedcj7

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 13:18

The way I read it, you have to have 40 hrs of training total. Only 30 of that has to be in airplanes. The regs pretty clearly lay out min of 3hrs of this and 5 hours of that, etc. They specifically say "in a single engine airplane" in certain places. Anywhere it does not specify, you can substitute your helo training.

That's the way it was explained to me and I'm currently working on my ASEL.

#5 jet trash

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 13:20

I have my helicopter ppl and instrument rating, and I can't seem to find how many airplane hours I would need to get my airplane private. Anyone happen to know? I thought it was 20 but I can't find it in the FARs, just says 40 total time.
Chris



it's 30 hours to add on an airplane private rating. read the FAR below. it says 40 hours of flight time. however, you already have 10 hours of flight time in a helicopter, therefore you need only the 20 hours of dual and 10 solo.

as for your instrument rating, you only need 15 hours in an airplane to add it.

§61.109 Aeronautical experience.


(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(B)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

(4) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a single-engine airplane, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least—

(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

#6 delorean

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 13:24

No, that's not right......You said it yourself, "40 hrs TOTAL time", not 40 hrs AIRPLANE time. If you hold a private-heli, you have at least 40 hrs of TOTAL time.

You just need to accomplish all the requirements listed under that category's header that include the words "in a single-engine airplane". Like a helicopter add-on, you'll still need to do 10 hrs solo time, 3 hrs prep for the checkride, 3 hrs at night, and a few other things. I know you'll need at least 3 hrs of instrument time in the airplane (Now, you'll need 10 hrs of instrument in an AIRCRAFT for your commercial helicopter rating, so you might get some extra time for that and your future instrument ratings in either. You can use up to 25 hrs of airplane instrument time toward your helicopter instrument rating.)

The add-on regs for categories and classes are in the first few pages part 61. They say that you must hold at least a private rating, your don't need another knowledge test (written), and that you must accomplish all the req's of the "Aeronautical experience" section for the rating sought.

Check it out.....a fixed wing rating can be very easily acquired in a minimal amount of hours.

#7 jet trash

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 14:51

Hey guys, that "20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor" falls under the "at least 40 hours of flight time". It's 20 hrs of TOTAL instruction received; it doesn't say 20 hrs in a single-engine airplane. It just says the total amounts and what the training must include.

So the way I read it now, you can do a fixed wing add-on in 22 hrs, right?

Of course if you're going the other way around, you'd need the 20 hrs dual prior to solo under SFAR 73 for R22s & R44s, so the minimums would 20 dual + 10 solo = 30 total helicopter in a Robinson.


it's 30 hours. accorcing to the reg you need "20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107" 61.107 (a)(B)(1) specifies airplane single engine . you can't use helicopter time to meet the requirement.

read the reg again:
a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes,at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(1) of this part and the training must include at least—

61.107

§61.107 Flight proficiency.
(a) General. A person who applies for a private pilot certificate must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation of this section that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

(B) Areas of operation.

(1) For an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Airport and seaplane base operations;

(iv) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;

(v) Performance maneuvers;

(vi) Ground reference maneuvers;

(vii) Navigation;

(viii) Slow flight and stalls;

(ix) Basic instrument maneuvers;

(x) Emergency operations;

(xi) Night operations, except as provided in §61.110 of this part; and

(xii) Postflight procedures.

#8 joker

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 15:09

20 hrs of training and 10 hours of solo all in SEL planes.

Jet Trash is most correct!

There are two interpretations to the rules here, which cause a lot of discussion.

It's late though, so explanations tomorrow!

Joker

#9 joker

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 00:18

Wow, I wrote my last post drunk late last night!

Here is a fuller explanation. Its a little bitty, as it's cut'n'pastes from posts I put on another forum before.

20 Hours Dual and 10 Hours Solo - All in SEL airplanes


In 61.63(b)(1), the text says that the applicant must posess the aeronautical experience prescribed for that part. Let's consider the PPL addon.

61.109(a) is that part refered to in 61.63""...must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(1) of this part...""

This is very specific. 40 hours (in any category and class), WHICH INCLUDES 20 hours in 61.107(b)[In other words airplanes] and 10 hours solo in 61.107(b)[In other words airplanes].

Thus to add-on Airplane SEL, to a rotorcraft licence, 20 hours dual in airplanes and 10 hours solo in airplanes, makes 30 hours in airplanes. It couldn't be clearer!

As for converting the other way Airplane to Rotorcraft, it is exactly the same, only the areas of operation are 61.107(b)(3)[In other words Helicopters].

You must read the first part of the rule as well. It says 20 hours WHICH MUST INCLUDE blah, blah, blah.

If you count up the blah-blah-blahs as being 9 hours, there are some (11) hours left to do...you still must do them! Just you can choose what to do (so long as they are in 61.107).

Now look at 61.63(b)(1) again.

""Must have received the required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed by this part that applies to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;
""


It specifies here that the 'aeronatical experience' must be for specific category and class (if applicable).

FAR 1.1 defines Aeronautical experience as, "pilot time obtained in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device for meeting the appropriate training and flight time requirements for an airman certificate, rating, flight review, or recency of flight experience requirements of this part."

But note the word 'APPROPRIATE' in the definition. So it can't be any old aircraft, it must the an APPROPRIATE one.

The definition of appropriateness is defined in the requirements of the Areas of Operation, which are different for each category. For example, SEL 61.107(b)(1), Multi 61.107(b)(2), Helicopter 61.107(b)(3) These areas of operation are split for each category. This suggests that the FAA note a difference between Rotorcraft and SEL and MEL and Gliders etc.... The areas of operation are not interchangeable. That means that although "Preflight procedures" occur in each of the areas of operations, you cannot interchange them. Preflighting a fixed-wing cannot be taught using a helicopter. Even an area such as "Navigation" must be repeated in the 'category, class and type for an addon.

So the 20 hours of training may not be accomplished in 'any' aircraft. It must be in the areas of 61.107(x)(x), which logic will dictate must be category and class.

Delorean, the interpretation you suggested, is not right. However, there are many people who follow this. Even some examiners will allow the 20 hours to be done in 'any' aircraft!! Some are genuinely unaware of the correct interpretation, others probably suspect it is dodgy, but will 'plead innocence' if they are ever asked. However, with the possibility of your certificate being revoked if ever investigated, do you want to take that risk? I would do it right, and get the 20 hours in SEL.

John Lynch's Aeronautical Experience Checklists Take a look at this link. This was written as J Lynch (who writes the FAQs). XXVIII in here says without a doubt that the 20 hours must be in SEL.

In addition, a friend of mine has had this interpretation confirmed by Lynch.

Hope this helps,

Joker

#10 flingwing206

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:29

Just to keep things confusing, here's something from the FAA which just doesn't help clear things up. Nor do I agree, but...

Both are the same 2-page PDF document, one is a large file (broadband), one is small (dial up).

FAA legal (small doc)
FAA legal (large doc)

Essentially it contradicts what you just posted, Joker. Like I said, I don't like it.

#11 joker

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 12:56

Ha! Well found Fling!..I have tried to find a legal opinion everywhere...where did this come from?

It looks like I'm going to have to get back to the computer and do some more research!

In the meantime, I cannot dispute what I see before me in black and white! I may have to 'eat my words'.

More later.

Joker

#12 flingwing206

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 13:17

Ha! Well found Fling!..I have tried to find a legal opinion everywhere...where did this come from?

The NY-area FSDO - it was part of a similar thread in the AOPA forums about 18 months ago, finally one longtime airplane CFI took the bull by the horns and drafted a letter to the FAA. This was the response.

#13 delorean

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 16:40

Just to keep things confusing, here's something from the FAA which just doesn't help clear things up. Nor do I agree, but...

Both are the same 2-page PDF document, one is a large file (broadband), one is small (dial up).

FAA legal (small doc)
FAA legal (large doc)

Essentially it contradicts what you just posted, Joker. Like I said, I don't like it.


THANK YOU......Man, I thought I was going crazy--I knew I had seen something from the feds about that 22 hr fixed-wing add-on in the past. I couldn't find it anywhere in the FAQs, so I just dropped it. I definitely wouldn't hang my hat on that interpretation though.

#14 lockedcj7

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 06:51

The way I look at it is this:

Airplane time is dirt-cheap compared to helicopter time and 30 hours really isn't that much. Once you get signed off and do all the solo time, you'll probably have close to 20 hours. Before I take my family on a trip, I want to make sure that I'm not only legal but safe as well.

#15 joker

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 11:48

All,

Well, I have thought long and hard about this...I have scoured the ethernet for more information regarding this question without much luck. The FAA Orders are quiet on this subject, as are the Part 61 FAQs.

Indeed, I have found interpretations from FSDO's, flight schools and other individuals and groups which propose both arguements (20/10 vs 22). Of course, I am no stranger to the concept that only 22 hours are required, and until recently did not agree with it.

Now I will eat my words, owe appology to Delorean and to the rest for possibly causing some confusion.

For reasons explained below, I will now say that the minimum required hours are 22 hours in single engine airplanes, and not 20+10 as I previously said.

There are two reasons how I can so easily jump from one side of the fence to the other just like that.

The first is the that I cannot dispute the arguments presented in the letter by Fling, which apply a more fundimental principle of interpretation than I did.

Secondly, there is an issue of authority. Although, this is still not a 'legal opinion' and therefore still is only a disputable interpretation, it is provided by an authority higher than I have seen so far. The Flight Standards Division and the Regional Councils are higher in authority than the FSDOs, FAA orders or the FAQs. Thus, whether you agree or not, this is what should be applied, until we find an interpretation from a yet, higher authority!

The only higher authority (and the only providers of 'legal interpretaions') are the law courts. I have been (and still am) unable to find a 'legal interpretation' of this rule.

A little background for anyone who's interested....

When interpreting statutory regulations there are a few rules / principles which are generally applied, and I find they usually work! The most fundimental (and thus first) is to consider the 'literal' or 'plain' meaning of the text, based on the words and the rules of construction used. The idea is that the law generally says what it means and means what it says. The problem with this approach is that it the limitations of written language often make it difficult to write laws which acheive the intent, using the written word as the instrument. Thus the literal approach is often not a sufficient tool to make an interpretation.

With the constraints of a written language, there may be a case where the literal meaning of the text is insufficient to portray the 'intent'. A literal interpretation could result in a meaning which is either absurd or micheivous (Golden Rule and Mischief Rule)! In such cases where there is still doubt, the literal interpretation is thrown aside and a 'Purposive' interpretation will be applied. In other words, the 'what was the intent of the law'?

How does this relate to the rule in question - How many hours to add-on a category?

In my post above, you will see I the rule interpreted using a more 'purposive' approach. That is, I made some assumptions on the intent of the law makers. The main one is that the FAA must see more of a distinction between training in an airplane to training in a helicopter. If this was the case, than no rule would allow airplane performance training (Areas of operation 61.107(a)) to be conducted in a helicopter or vice versa. The literal interpretation in the letter would allow this to happen. (That's one of my main reservations to this interpretation). The assumptions are based on my knowledge of other FARs, what I have found during my research, and convincing arguemnts from various FSDOs and individuals.

However, in the letter (posted by Flingwing), you will see that they have used a more 'literal' interpretation.

My problem is that I cannot actually dispute this literal interpretation for lack of resources (I don't have access to the 62 Federal Register documents and the 'preamble' they mention). Also, it lays forth the most convincing argument for a literal interpretation I have seen yet. (In fact the only convincing argument, yet!) As explained in the letter, I must agree, there is nothing to contradict the literal interpretation, and indeed the statutory constructions also support a literal interpretation.

Remember I said the literal interpretation is applied first. So for this reason alone, I must accept that interpretation. My purposive interpretation becomes redundant!

However, Delorean and Fling both hinted at something important. That letter is not a legal document; it is only an interpretaion. You will notice some allowance by the author for that fact. Phrases such as "We believe...[para. 2]", "We conclude...[para. 5], "Perhaps for this reason the drafters....[para. 6]" are evidence of this.

There are still some anomolies which contradict the conclusions of this letter. Although I accept that interpretation as applicable, I am not 100% convinced it is the right one. There are still some grey ares. I suppose that is why there are the varying interpretations of this rule. One person who has confirmed to me his interpretation (mine being very similar to his) is none other than our friend, John Lynch, the author of the Part 61 FAQs. His 'Aeronautical Experience Checklist' clearly stipulates 20+10hrs all in SEL airplanes...(or does it?!). Don't worry, I shall be getting back to him!

XXVIII. An additional Airplane category rating for the Single Engine class rating at the Private Pilot Certification Level:
A. Dual: 20 hours of flight training with an instructor on the Private Pilot areas of operation in a single engine airplane, that includes:...


The point is that the rule is definitely open to different interpretations.

It could be that it goes to court one day and a judge will see things not as the author of the letter does, but as Lynch does, and then I'd have to 'eat my words again'! Well, that's just the way the law works!


With all this in mind, as lockedcj7 has just said above, maybe it would be prudent to take the safe approach in your training. For a few dollars more, you can be certain you have been certified properly and be that little bit more ready and that little bit safer when you take your checkride.

What fun, eh?!

Joker

#16 Fred0311

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:38

I'm going to be getting my FW add on and wanted to bump this. The links to the FAA legal opinions aren't working and was wondering if anyone had more current info. My reading of the FARs is coming up with a possible 19 hours minimum though I expect it to take more than that.




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